What is your stance on Chinese brand Hi-fi equipment

[tmtomh]

The low cost Chinese HiFi is definitely enabling audiophiles to experiment with relatively cheap and cheerful little boxes that offer a fair bit of bang for the buck. I see it as entry-level stuff to get (mostly) young guys into 2ch audio- and that's not a bad thing. It's not even a step over the DIY (amplifier) kits we used to buy and build in the 1980s.

Nobody in the mainstream market takes this stuff seriously, except perhaps for people who want it to be be more than it is.

This is inaccurate, and dumb.

The inaccurate part is that Chinese-branded gear is exclusively targeted to the low end, and exclusively poorly made and/or poorly engineered. That's no longer the case, and it hasn't been the case for some years now.

The dumb part - and sadly you are far from alone in this - is that as others have noted above, most gear is made in China regardless of brand. So when we talk about Chinese brand hi-fi equipment, we're not talking about the manufacturing of the gear, and we're not talking about the final assembly of the gear, and we're not talking about the design or manufacture of many of the components in the gear, we're usually not talking about the design of the software, and in many cases we're not necessarily even talking about design of the UI. We're basically talking only about overall circuit design, case design, and marketing - oh, and setting of the price point!

So the "analysis," to put it kindly, of "Chinese" gear is really a thinly veiled question of, "Can 'the Chinese' design good circuits and pick good enclosures, and do they have the ability and will to produce well-built products?"

The answer to that question is twofold:

1. Yes, of course.

And,

2. China has about 1 billion people of adult age, about 8 million college graduates, and the Shenzhen region alone produces an estimated 90% of the world's electronic devices. So "the Chinese" are an enormous population, with exactly as much diversity and complexity within the population as anyone else. So of course their electronics industry, including audio, produces low-cost gear, high-cost gear, poorly built junk, excellent equipment, and so on.

I swear, some thread topics just make people stupider.

 

[NTK]

Perhaps, but be a little careful. I know that here you can say, "Made in the USA" if some of the parts are final assembled here.

From this FTC page:

Complying with the Made in USA Standard

Introduction Basic Information About Made In USA Claims The Standard For Unqualified Made In USA Claims Qualified Claims Comparative Claims The FTC and The Customs Service Other Statutes What To Do About Violations Introduction The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) is charged with preventing

www.ftc.gov

 

[fpitas]

From this FTC page:

Complying with the Made in USA Standard

Introduction Basic Information About Made In USA Claims The Standard For Unqualified Made In USA Claims Qualified Claims Comparative Claims The FTC and The Customs Service Other Statutes What To Do About Violations Introduction The Federal Trade Commission (FTC) is charged with preventing

www.ftc.gov

View attachment 223784

That final paragraph is telling. In any event, I have no idea what Japanese law is on that subject.

 

[spartaman64]

Perhaps, but be a little careful. I know that here you can say, "Made in the USA" if some of the parts are final assembled here.

yep theres some controversy in the watch community because in order to be considered "made in switzerland" 60% of the manufacturing cost of the watch has to be done in switzerland. and sometimes just having someone in switzerland polish the watch case is enough to qualify while the rest of the watch is made in china lol

 

[JSmith]

parts

L-509X | INTEGRATED AMPLIFIERS | PRODUCTS | LUXMAN | Seeking higher sound quality

www.luxman.com

M-200 | POWER AMPLIFIERS | PRODUCTS | LUXMAN | Seeking higher sound quality

www.luxman.com

Oh no, Luxman have non Japanese parts... the horror!


JSmith

 

[fpitas]

View attachment 223785

L-509X | INTEGRATED AMPLIFIERS | PRODUCTS | LUXMAN | Seeking higher sound quality

www.luxman.com

View attachment 223787

M-200 | POWER AMPLIFIERS | PRODUCTS | LUXMAN | Seeking higher sound quality

www.luxman.com

Oh no, Luxman have non Japanese parts... the horror!


JSmith

The Japanese have deep connections into Chinese contract manufacturers.

 

[JSmith]

The Japanese have deep connections into Chinese contract manufacturers.

Indeed, in fact some Japanese engineers went to work for Chinese companies after "made in Japan" started to diminish. Although let's not forget Taiwan.


JSmith

 

[steve59]

pretty sure everything comes from china regardless what the brand says.

 

[fpitas]

Indeed, in fact some Japanese engineers went to work for Chinese companies after "made in Japan" started to diminish. Although let's not forget Taiwan.


JSmith

Sure. What non-engineers may not know: contract manufacturing is always a crap-shoot. No matter where you are. You are best off to carefully check incoming quality, and reject non-compliant product.

 

[anmpr1]

The inaccurate part is that Chinese-branded gear is exclusively targeted to the low end, and exclusively poorly made and/or poorly engineered. That's no longer the case, and it hasn't been the case for some years now.

As mentioned before, the first person I remember who took Chinese gear 'seriously' was Mark Levinson. He got a lot of flak over it... innuendo that he was somehow scamming people for selling Chinese products. Was it some kind of fraud? I don't know what was written on the back of the gear. Maybe it said assembled in Connecticut, or where ever he was living, at the time. In a Stereophile interview, Mark openly admitted that his stuff was made there. Funny thing..., I never read on the blogs how owners were complaining, and you hardly find his Red Rose gear on the second hand market. So either there were not many sold (likely--given his limited to two cities distribution), and they have all broken down and been tossed, or the gear is still in homes.

I really don't understand either the factual or the emotional basis of any of it. Certainly fashion changes. We know how back in the day, in the '70s, Japanese gear was looked down upon by the high-end press, and dealers who had tweako franchises. They were pushing US made boutique brands (often of highly questionable build quality). On the other hand, almost every high-end brand sold a MC cartridge with a fancy name, and most of those were sourced from Japan, OEM. Everyone understood that, and no one complained.

My only question about the stuff is what do you do if it breaks? If you have that covered, then I don't see any problems.

 

[egellings]

I think Japan had a reputation for hand making items like phono cartridges with extreme attention to every tiny detail in the product.

 

[fpitas]

I think Japan had a reputation for hand making items like phono cartridges with extreme attention to every tiny detail in the product.

And horn drivers (think: TAD). Not cheap, but SOTA.

 

[DonR]

I think Japan had a reputation for hand making items like phono cartridges with extreme attention to every tiny detail in the product.

I remember these from the 80's and 90's. Some single craftsman hand winding the coils in his mountain top retreat.

 

[egellings]

Special incantations were required at each step of assembly, too.

 

[fpitas]

Special incantations were required at each step of assembly, too.

Of course. I write the incantations we use in production

 

[Hemi-Demon]

I don't mind where the device is manufactured, but I do have an issue with the lack of repair facilities in the USA. Topping and SMSL all have devices that perform well, but have a high failure rate.

There also doesn't seem to be any long term value or technical support for these devices since they are refreshed every year.

It's on the consumer though, myself included. Just don't buy them if you don't appreciate the lack of customer service, failed boards, poor software, poor remotes, incompatible impedance etc.

Leaving global support up to John Yang and SMSL Mandy is a tad ridiculous imo.

I own a Topping headphone amp, a SMSL dac. My power amps are Buckeye and I own a few Denon HT amps. My speakers are Polk, and Genelec.


I would really appreciate if RME would make a standalone PRE/DAC with a 10 band PEQ with auto eq DSP.

 

[anmpr1]

Special incantations were required at each step of assembly, too.

And the special tea. As the craftsman worked, high on the mountain top, each subsequent infusion he drank increased his Zen clarity, and the subsequent value of the particular cartridge he was building increased in price.

Unless it was a Pioneer product. Then, the more the craftsman drank the sloppier his work became. But by that time he didn't care.

 

[mdunjic]

It's undeniable that Hifi equipment from Topping, SMSL, Sabaj, Aiyama etc. are very popular here in ASR. The interests seem huge, but I wonder what's the consensus, are they actually popular or just we are led to believe?

Just look at @amirm's measurements ... they speak for itself.

 

[Bob from Florida]

They’re all IAG brands, and they make most of their stuff in China. Peter Comeau moved out to China to supervise the factory IIRC. Maybe some or all of the Luxman bits are still made in Japan, but who knows for sure, and does it matter?

Sounds like you made an "assumption" based on a generalization. Like my high school physics teacher said - when you "assume" you make an "ass" out if "u" and "me".
It matters because I would expect folks to at least try to me somewhat accurate in a "Science" based forum.

As far as my own personal stance on Chinese manufactured goods - I will buy it if it meets my needs and reliability / repairability is adequate. If something domestic made costs a little bit more and meets the aforementioned criteria I will buy domestic. If possible I like to support local economies rather than the other side of the planet.

 

[Bob from Florida]

This is what IAG says about Luxman.

LUXMAN, Yokohama, Japan​

Yokohama, is the second largest city in Japan, by population. It is a major commercial hub of the greater Toyko area and is one of the most important port cities in Japan.
The HQ of IAG Group’s Luxman brand, via the Luxman Corporation and part of the IAG family since 2009, the Luxman office is a centre for specialised engineering, research and development and the global sales of the Luxman brand.
A dedicated manufacturing team manages production of the premium Luxman electronics with expertise that cannot be matched or replicated, outside of Japan!
Manned by a team of long-service Luxman product experts, engineers and service professionals, Yokohama is the rightful spiritual home of the Japanese brand. With more than 100 years of experience of working on the IAG Group brand’s products between its staff, the Luxman office stays true to the brands Japanese heritage, legacy and prestige.