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What is timbre and can we measure it?

This entire thread has become two semantic arguments:

(1) Do rooms and other secondary sources have a timbre, or do they shape/alter the timbre of the primary source?
Both or either, depending on whether you listen to the sounds separately or together. Hardly a semantic question..
(2) Does it make sense to describe the nonlinearities and distortions of playback gear as timbre?

Only is you can do something useful with the description.
The only relevant question left at this point is, Can anyone explain the vinyl renaissance?
Time travel?

As for arguing both side of a question, that criticism assumes one side has all the virtue, whereas I'm of the opinion one side doesn't appreciate how complicated the question truly is. BTW, the easiest way to let a discussion die is to stop asking questions.
 
This entire thread has become two semantic arguments:

(1) Do rooms and other secondary sources have a timbre, or do they shape/alter the timbre of the primary source?
Yes, they do have a decay and can modify the frequency response in many ways, even substantially.
I don't know if that should be called timbre though.
Would prefer to use the term 'acoustics' for room effects.

(2) Does it make sense to describe the nonlinearities and distortions of playback gear as timbre?
No. They are non linearities (distortion and/or frequency/phase response)

The definition of timbre is a bit wonky and when there is a lack of proper vocabulary or one is adamant to using that word then that is what causes the endless back and forth.
 
Preach! Frankly I'm a little surprised to see a multi-front defense of alternative definitions of timbre on a forum where PRaT is only used ironically.
I dunno about these definitions. All I know is that couple of years ago my ex GF told me that Prat and Pitch had divorced. Apparently that was supposed to be big news...
 
One reason being that I tend to associate colours with sound, and also that more broadly speaking you often see many audio files associating colours with sound.
For instance, there’s something of a trope among some tube fans of associating old Conrad Johnson tube amplifiers as having something of a “ golden” or “ bronze” like tonality or timber. My point and bring that up isn’t to say that it’s true or justifiable. Only that, for whatever reason, i’ve seen many audiophiles adducing certain colours sometimes and trying to describe how they are perceiving something.
Would you say that the look of the equipment might have something to do with it? Most Conrad Johnson devices are in gold colour. Just Google Conrad johnson images and the whole page is populated by golden colour devices.
 
Well I shall continue to NOT use Timbre to describe how gear changes sound. I'll continue to call it by its nature: Distortion. :cool:

The rest of you can do what you like. :p
 
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Fixed the word choice ... timbre also suggests a specific attack, sustain and decay along with a spectrum of (harmonic) frequencies.
A transducer only has has a deviating frequency response and the attack and decay are frequency dependent and in general much, much shorter than any music instrument. The harmonics also differ from those of music instruments and in general are so low in amplitude that they do not alter the 'timbre' of an instrument.
The frequency response is mostly to blame.
Amps/DACs only can have a deviating frequency response.
Yes, I was considering that too ie tonal balance or tone. Thank you for pointing that out. Appreciate it. :)
 
This entire thread has become two semantic arguments:

(1) Do rooms and other secondary sources have a timbre, or do they shape/alter the timbre of the primary source?

(2) Does it make sense to describe the nonlinearities and distortions of playback gear as timbre?
:)

No, 1) and 2) are too narrow.

Some are arguing that the term timbre can be applied to the sound as perceived by the listener. I.e the sound has a timbre. (I'd say this is the broadest definition as it doesn't limit to any particular sound source).

The timbre of the sound can be considered completely independently of the source (instrument/speaker) or any transfer function that is applied (either electronically or acoustically).

Consider a blind test where the listener is not aware of the source of the sound, the room they are in or if any dsp manipulation has ocurred. Their task is to correctly identify when they have been teleported to a concert hall and are listening to real instruments playing without modification. The thing they can use to make their choice is the timbre of the sound they hear.

Clearly any factor can modify the timbre of the perceived sound. I.e. if poor speakers are used instead of real instruments, or if the listener is teleported to a bathroom instead of a concert hall.

In science and engineering it is beneficial to have narrow, clearly defined terms. (Stardards are helpful for this). However, in literature and in general conversation it allows more freedom and creativity if words are defined more loosely, or are deliberately applied in new areas and out of context. The meaning of words frequently varies over time and according to the group of people using them.

Timbre doesn't seem to be very clearly defined scientifically and is far more a word that is applied creatively (e.g. in all those audiophile reviews). That horse already bolted long ago, trying to lock it down to a narrower meaning now is not likely to work.
 
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And here we go again . . .
vinyl is pleasure and being used for adults to learn patience. we become too connected to a world where we can press play, stop, and forwards all to easy.

learning to put a record on and gaining the patience to listen to it all the way through is a task most people now adays dont practice. vinyl teaches us this again. patience.
 
vinyl is pleasure and being used for adults to learn patience. we become too connected to a world where we can press play, stop, and forwards all to easy.

learning to put a record on and gaining the patience to listen to it all the way through is a task most people now adays dont practice. vinyl teaches us this again. patience.
My point was to show where the discussion started on that long and tangled thread before it metastasized.

In other words, "It's a joke son".

If you want to post something like "vinyl teaches us this again. patience", you should post it on the endless vinyl renaissance thread.

Me? I done run out of patience.

"Argument clinic? I'm sorry, this is abuse."

Back to timbre:

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we become too connected to a world where we can press play, stop, and forwards all to easy.
And we experience a whole world of music at our fingertips. I have collected about 700 lps since 1968 and 1200 CDs since ~1990 my streaming service has 80 million titles and now can listen to Cumbia, Highlife, Fada, Latvian Choir, triphop, Death Metal all with a press of a button. Being stuck in rut (pun intended) is no claim to fame.
 
vinyl is pleasure and being used for adults to learn patience. we become too connected to a world where we can press play, stop, and forwards all to easy.

learning to put a record on and gaining the patience to listen to it all the way through is a task most people now adays dont practice. vinyl teaches us this again. patience.

If I were to use your line of interaction I could say that sounds like a fart sniffing rationalization for vinyl and thinking yourself more patient than the average person ;-)

But I don’t think that makes for very fruitful conversation.

if i hired a engineer to develop something for me and he came back and used the word timbre, i may have to fire him.

You sound like a tough boss.
Such allergy to people using words in a way that you refuse to countenance means you wouldn’t last very long in my business.
We manage to use language creatively to communicate, rather than complain to each other about “fart sniffing”. . ;-)
 
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im not patient at all. i have a problem with patience. but with vinyl i am. i put my phone down, put my pager on my belt. maybe grab a cigar and or a beer maybe. and then listen to each one after i wash each one prior to playing. its just a different zone mentally.
Okay lots of people like Lps. Condemning the current world expanding access to music and ease of use seems pointless and condescending..
 
Okay lots of people like Lps. Condemning the current world expanding access to music and ease of use seems pointless and condescending..
thats not what i meant. i just mean being into vinyl allows someone the time and practice of patience not practiced by a bunch of society anymore. i would rather ditch my cell phone and go back to the days of pagers. we live in a toxic world. its cool to disconnect and learn how to have patience as records tech you that.
 
thats not what i meant. i just mean being into vinyl allows someone the time and practice of patience not practiced by a bunch of society anymore. i would rather ditch my cell phone and go back to the days of pagers. we live in a toxic world. its cool to disconnect and learn how to have patience as records tech you that.
I think it's best to be on this thread on that topic
 
ASR is mainstream? Certainly the minutiae of individual acoustic instruments is outside scope of most discussion or poster expertise (not all posters though). But while you may want to assert a monopoly on the terminology, fortunately you lack jurisdiction and reach. :)
Sorry for the tardiness of this response, but we experienced a power outage last night. You see, I live in California, a third world country.

I never claimed jurisdiction over the word. I merely tried to convey how it is often used outside this particular techno-ghetto (yes, there is a world out there) and how it might serves as useful shorthand in some circumstances.

What surprises me is the discomfort some feel for words to which one cannot sensibly append a metric.
 
thats not what i meant. i just mean being into vinyl allows someone the time and practice of patience not practiced by a bunch of society anymore. i would rather ditch my cell phone and go back to the days of pagers. we live in a toxic world. its cool to disconnect and learn how to have patience as records tech you that.
argh, dude... You sound like Eckhart Tolle. If you need records (it's not vinyl) to practice patience, maybe it's not for you.
 
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argh, dude... You sound like Eckhart Tolle. If you need records (it's not vinyl) to practice patience, maybe it's not for you.
I've wondered for a long time if impolex g was a metaphor for PVC.
I love the smell of outgassing vinyl in the morning.
 
Well, again I'm the daft one... This is too often a case lately. I thought that the difference in sound when the same note is played on, let's say, trumpet and oboe is due to timbre...
 
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