What is this? No golden ears!

[AnalogSteph]

Both devices in question were made years after CD playback was a solved problem in either category, and are good enough or better than needed. It's not like one would be a mid-'80s CD player (and even those were generally adequate) or a cheap supermarket DVD player.

The BDP-S570 uses a WM8524 as a DAC. 2 Vrms output out of a 3.3 V supply, DR 106 dB(A), THD -86 dB @ 0 dBFS, -89 dB @ -1 dBFS. Some periodic passband ripple but not terrible. Not a world-beater but certainly adequate.
In the CD5001, it's a CS4392. DR 114 dB(A) (expect maybe 111 in practice), THD-N -100 dB. Much lower digital filter passband ripple, too. Classic midrange part.

You'll be very lucky to come across any recording that captures even 90 dB of dynamic range. At ff levels I wouldn't count on microphone distortion being better than -70..80 dB either (and let's not talk about your speakers, where -60 dB at elevated volume will be considered good).

Classical music tends to not be too hard on DACs either. I might try some known loudness war victims to compare the reaction to intersample-overs... are Death Magnetic (Metallica) or Viva la Vida (Coldplay) old enough yet? Trying to think of some other super common and super hot releases from the 2000s...

 

[DanielT]

Thanks AnalogSteph, interesting information!

Let me be honest, I did not have any direct exact speakers when I tested. Certainly high distortion, not so straight frequency response in them. Seen in this context, the performance and deviations that the players could incur are a fart in space compared to the speakers. But on the other hand, the same "error" when compared to the same speakers.

Speaker Kef Cadenza by the way. Probably measures poorly compared to, for example, some modern Gelenec. But I ignore that. They's damn fun to listen to. Even if they now color the music or not. HiFi should be fun too.

Edit:
hmm when I think about it now. Damn lucky I did not blow the tweeters in Kef Cadenzarna when I turned up the volume really high.
Tweeters t27.But as my friend jokingly said, you are not a real hifi man if you do not burn a few tweeters now and then. ... If he was joking when he said that, what do I know.Had I blown the tweeter , well "You win some, lose some, all the same to me...
The pleasure is to play, makes no difference what you say"

 

[roog]

Re: The Op's "What is this, no golden ears?"

This used to happen to me every time I would listen to a new bit of HiFi gear at my dealer, I would bring my present source along to compare and then I would try out the 'latest upgrade', often the same brand but supposedly better. I could never hear any meaningful difference between the units and certainly nothing that would justify expending £1,000s. The result being that I would leave, savings intact but disappointed that I had not discovered the next audio panacea.

I have done this several times over the years to no avail. on occasions even asking the salesman if he could hear any difference, to which they would normally shrug their shoulders.

On the last such occasion, the young sales assistant said to me, "wow, hear how that noise has fallen away" I realised at that point that I was wasting my time, if he was lying, I was in the wrong shop and if he was telling the truth it didn't matter because I heard no change!

Having now found ASR I am much more comfortable that I have found a good way of judging kit, even if I don't need to buy any of it. (although of course I have and it sounds great to my ears!) :0)

 

[DanielT]

But what if neither you roog nor I have gold ears? Here is a person who is very good at hearing differences in sound when he changes to a really expensive ...

..usb cable ...

I'm not posting a link here. That would be a little silly. It is a private person who writes. Cuts in listening impressions of this new wonderful usb cable

".,. that price range, best sounding USB I have ever tried. .....

... I would describe the sound as laid back, with a rear of hall perspective. Highs are ever so slightly attenuated and bass is accented resulting in a warm rounded sound. Smooth too, with a refined presentation with no particular frequency given prominence .... "

Etc. etc it continues ..

 

[Jimbob54]

But what if neither you roog nor I have gold ears? Here is a person who is very good at hearing differences in sound when he changes to a really expensive ...

..usb cable ...

I'm not posting a link here. That would be a little silly. It is a private person who writes. Cuts in listening impressions of this new wonderful usb cable

".,. that price range, best sounding USB I have ever tried. .....

... I would describe the sound as laid back, with a rear of hall perspective. Highs are ever so slightly attenuated and bass is accented resulting in a warm rounded sound. Smooth too, with a refined presentation with no particular frequency given prominence .... "

Etc. etc it continues ..

Its probably best just to ignore such utterances. There is a difference between coming on a forum thinking you hear an unexplained difference in components that you want assistance tracking down and those posters that just want to wax lyrical about their new widget with absolutely zero controlled unsighted listening.

 

[DanielT]

Its probably best just to ignore such utterances. There is a difference between coming on a forum thinking you hear an unexplained difference in components that you want assistance tracking down and those posters that just want to wax lyrical about their new widget with absolutely zero controlled unsighted listening.

It was an ironic post on my part. But my God, that side. Post after post even more in-depth about how usb cables sounds like. Cables for over $ 600. Best I stop reading what is written on that page. I'm just getting annoyed

 

[Robin L]

I'm sorry, what was that you just said?

 

[antcollinet]

I was gonna figure out how many dB that was but I couldn't figure out log(infinity).

It is in the region of 160 according to my calculator

 

[DontListenToMe]

The amplifier may be ok. Useless ears.

As someone said: When I was young, I had the hearing but no money to buy quality hifi. Now that I'm older, I have the money but not the hearing.

Just accept the fact. The ability to hear higher frequencies decreases with age.

It has been a while since I last had a CRT TV, but back when I was in my late teens / early adulthood, living with my parents, when I arrived late at night I used to know, the moment I got through the door, whether my dad had fallen sleep in front of the TV with the movie already over. That 15,750 Hz tone emitted by the (I think) flyback transformer was pretty audible and clear to me. I tested multiple times to validate it was that indeed and also switched places with my dad (he was probably in his late 40s at the time), but he couldn't hear it at all.

Fast-forward a few years and I learn that it is due to aging and it is expected hearing loss. But I was still in my 20s, so it was a concept a bit alien to me, right?

Fast-forward at 3x speed and now here I am, middle-aged, doing audiometric self-assessments and realizing that my high-frequency hearing has started to roll off. Most likely I wouldn't hear that CRT noise myself anymore. Time to stare at the mirror and ask: who's the old man now?




P.S.: Is it a faux-pas to reply to a quiet thread here? Is a four-month old thread considered... well, old?

 

[DanielT]

It has been a while since I last had a CRT TV, but back when I was in my late teens / early adulthood, living with my parents, when I arrived late at night I used to know, the moment I got through the door, whether my dad had fallen sleep in front of the TV with the movie already over. That 15,750 Hz tone emitted by the (I think) flyback transformer was pretty audible and clear to me. I tested multiple times to validate it was that indeed and also switched places with my dad (he was probably in his late 40s at the time), but he couldn't hear it at all.

Fast-forward a few years and I learn that it is due to aging and it is expected hearing loss. But I was still in my 20s, so it was a concept a bit alien to me, right?

Fast-forward at 3x speed and now here I am, middle-aged, doing audiometric self-assessments and realizing that my high-frequency hearing has started to roll off. Most likely I wouldn't hear that CRT noise myself anymore. Time to stare at the mirror and ask: who's the old man now?




P.S.: Is it a faux-pas to reply to a quiet thread here? Is a four-month old thread considered... well, old?

That's life. But it is possible to laugh at it, as those who test here do when the test leader says: Enjoy it as long as it lasts.

Round two. Now I am myself, but later today. Well guess what I'll do.
(Hm, maybe even with headphones this time ...)

A little to play with. I'll think about how I do it. Do you have tips to come with, I will gladly accept them.

Edit:
By the way, hm ... see pictures ... hm maybe, but right now my Topping is on loan. I will return to that test. Via external DAC that is. Or someone else can test it. Any of you can do exactly the same thing I did / do. Buy some used players (then sell them after testing if you want), finding some duplicate CDs is not difficult.

What do I know, Qobuz vs Spotify? (of course the challenge will be if it is the same master, but two different cables so .... it is only the creativity that sets the limits).

For those of you who snort and think that: But I can easily fix that myself, to hear the difference, so my tip is partly to test yourself (of course) partly to get a little more self-insight:

How Much Distortion Can you Hear?

An interesting test probably posted before although it didn't come up in a search. Also try difference sources ie ear phones vs speakers.

audiosciencereview.com

Blind Testing a 1 dB Level Difference

Discover the smallest difference in level (dB) you can reliably hear.

www.audiocheck.net

The less difference there is between the gadgets you compare, the more important it becomes to match them, level match and according to all the rules of art perform tests, blind tests in the right way. Now I do not claim that mine are state if the art. This is mostly to arouse some thoughts and reflections. For example, I have not checked if it is statistically significant (which of course I can do).

 

[tomtoo]

No wonder, with that cheap cables you cant hear any differences.

 

[_Dekker]

In the 90's I swapped my cheap Marantz CD player for a cheap Pioneer player from a friend to see if there would be a difference.
Well there surely was: the Pioneer added a sibilance to female voices that was very easy to pick out and annoying to listen to.
The same with an old Akai amplifier swapped for an entry level Marantz: the bass became just tight: in some drum tracks there were now actually brief silences where previously it was just ok to my ears. I was amazed at the difference.
I do think that you will have a tough job to replicate such differences with modern gear.
Since then, I at least have never heard such a change in sound again. Not talking about speakers.

 

[DanielT]

No wonder, with that cheap cables you cant hear any differences.

He he.
This is because I then will not know which player I plug into the AUX or CD input on the HK amplifier.

If you are several people who carry out blind tests you can compare different types of cables blindly. Fairly pointless if you ask me, to do that , but of course you can do it. Also pretty pointless my round two, but I have nothing better to do.

Ha, come up with what you might do. Take Spotify, premium subscription vs non ditto and compare. Same cables, two different inputs in the amplifier. Or the sound quality at different levels between two different Spotify subscriptions. Then compare.

Edit:
Concentration otherwise applies. Loose attitude that I do NOT hear any difference, it is in itself a bias that can affects results. It's a little trickier than you think to test and compare.

 

[tomtoo]

He he.

This is because I then will not know which player I plug into the AUX or CD input on the HK amplifier.

If there are several, you can of course be helped to do the same and have different RCA cables and test if you hear different differences.

Ha, come up with what you might do. Take Spotify, premium subscription vs non ditto and compare. Same cables, two different inputs in the amplifier. Or the sound quality at different levels between two different Spotify subscriptions. Then compare.

I compared ripping CD's to flac and high bitrate mp4. Absolutly no difference. I still rip to flac, just to talk to myself, thats the original.And who cares today about some Gbyte more memory? I did recordings with 44/16 vs 96/24 of natural instruments. No differences.

For me its funny reading that BS about differences of usb cables. And how crazy people get about speaker cables. The hifi world is a circus. Best is get some experience and than look at it with enough distance and have some fun.

 

[pseudoid]

You should have reversed L/R at one player unintentionally and unnoticed

That is one clever but mean trick (or vice versa)!
I like the way you think...You deserve my "likey" click!

 

[DanielT]

You did it all wrong. You should have reversed L/R at one player unintentionally and unnoticed, then write a 2 page story and record a 10 minute video on how big the listening differences between two CD players can be...

On the other hand you saved a lot of your lifetime from being wasted.

Lol,

It's pretty pointless to keep testing, but as I said, I have the gadgets, so. I just must not have a too relaxed attitude, too much bias that I will NOT hear differences. Psychology plays a big role.

 

[tomtoo]

"..No..."

You have to do a war dance before a listening test. Your warrior/hunter gens have to be full awake.

 

[solderdude]

Got an idea last week. Connected a Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570, and a CD- player Marantz CD5001 to the pre amp. It has line selectors.

Went to the local flea market and managed to find duplicates, CDs. Exactly the same CDs, the same recording on the discs. Same master. Enter with the discs in the players. I think they have the same strength on the output because it sounded just as loud. Trimming, sync of the sound. When I switched between them, the music was in the same place. Result. I could not hear a shit difference. I probably dont have golden ears, or too bad amplifier and or speakers. The CDs, which I managed to find duplicates of, were one with Scheherazade, op. 35 by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. So it was also music that need a decent hifi equipment to sound good . Of course
when I turned the volume up really high, I succeeded with Scheherazade go get the amplifier in clipping mode. Useless amplifier. Apart from that, I heard no sound difference between the players.

My sister came and visited (had nothing to do with sound and hifi). She had to switch between the players and I listened blindly. No difference.

By the way, her comment: "You are an middle-aged man, what kind of nonsense are you doing."
Sets my curiosity and has fun at the same time. .... Okay, maybe she had a point.

Those were my listening impressions. Have you tried doing something similar? How good, or bad player do you think is needed before you can hear the difference? It also depends on which amplifier and speaker you use, of course.

A long time ago a had a debate with a colleague who claimed to hear differences between CDP's.
One day we met at his house and I took along my Technics CDP (MASH converter) and a few CD's I was familiar with.
Connected it to his stereo while he was using his Philips CDP (R2R) and as he also had 2 of the CD's I also took along we decided to start them at the same time and switched.
They could be told apart but we noticed output levels were not exactly the same. Fortunately he also had a cassette deck (Akai I believe).
So the Technics (being the loudest) was connected to the line in of the cassette deck and the line out to the amp. The cassette deck was set to record mode and thus acted as a volume control. Volume set and fun began.
No audible differences. MASH (4 bit DS) via cassette deck vs Philips CDP.

 

[DanielT]

I came up with another thing. I have tested and compared sound before. Now if I try to guess which player it comes from. I have sold the Marantz CD player (forgot I sold it). However, now Technic: https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/technics/sl-pd787.shtml
Line output: 2V

Vs

Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570. 2 Vrms output. So then the question is: How many tests should I do? The more I do the more I can count out chance (purely statically).

I have a cardboard wall in between so I do not know from time to time which ones are which, the RCA cables then I plug into HK 670 (random).

The cabinet will be repainted and get new buds. Maybe that's what I really should do (fix to the cupboard), but shit the same. This is more fun.

I'm not a "headphone guy" but I have a pair of basic headphones. I will test with them.

Edit:I probably have to cut up that box, too big now. What do you not do for the sake of .... something, or what I am doing now.

 

[Pdxwayne]

I came up with another thing. I have tested and compared sound before. Now if I try to guess which player it comes from. I have sold the Marantz CD player (forgot I sold it). However, now Technic: https://www.hifiengine.com/manual_library/technics/sl-pd787.shtml
Line output: 2V

Vs

Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570. 2 Vrms output. So then the question is: How many tests should I do? The more I do the more I can count out chance (purely statically).

I have a cardboard wall in between so I do not know from time to time which ones are which, the RCA cables then I plug into HK 670 (random).

The cabinet will be repainted and get new buds. Maybe that's what I really should do (fix to the cupboard), but shit the same. This is more fun.

I'm not a "headphone guy" but I have a pair of basic headphones. I will test with them.

Rated at 2v does not mean both players will output exactly at 2v when playing max signal.

So, first thing is to check if they are outputting same voltage when playing the same signal.

Also, if your amp and speakers have significantly higher noise/distortions than your player, you might not hear minor differences anyway between players. Do you know the measurements of your amp and speakers?