What is this? No golden ears!

[DanielT]

Got an idea last week. Connected a Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570, and a CD- player Marantz CD5001 to the pre amp. It has line selectors.

Went to the local flea market and managed to find duplicates, CDs. Exactly the same CDs, the same recording on the discs. Same master. Enter with the discs in the players. I think they have the same strength on the output because it sounded just as loud. Trimming, sync of the sound. When I switched between them, the music was in the same place. Result. I could not hear a shit difference. I probably dont have golden ears, or too bad amplifier and or speakers. The CDs, which I managed to find duplicates of, were one with Scheherazade, op. 35 by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. So it was also music that need a decent hifi equipment to sound good . Of course
when I turned the volume up really high, I succeeded with Scheherazade go get the amplifier in clipping mode. Useless amplifier. Apart from that, I heard no sound difference between the players.

My sister came and visited (had nothing to do with sound and hifi). She had to switch between the players and I listened blindly. No difference.

By the way, her comment: "You are an middle-aged man, what kind of nonsense are you doing."
Sets my curiosity and has fun at the same time. .... Okay, maybe she had a point.

Those were my listening impressions. Have you tried doing something similar? How good, or bad player do you think is needed before you can hear the difference? It also depends on which amplifier and speaker you use, of course.

 

[Jimbob54]

Got an idea last week. Connected a Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570, and a CD- player Marantz CD5001 to the pre amp. It has line selectors.

Went to the local flea market and managed to find duplicates, CDs. Exactly the same CDs, the same recording on the discs. Same master. Enter with the discs in the players. I think they have the same strength on the output because it sounded just as loud. Trimming, sync of the sound. When I switched between them, the music was in the same place. Result. I could not hear a shit difference. I probably dont have golden ears, or too bad amplifier and or speakers. The CDs, which I managed to find duplicates of, were one with Scheherazade, op. 35 by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. So it was also music that need a decent hifi equipment to sound good . Of course
when I turned the volume up really high, I succeeded with Scheherazade go get the amplifier in clipping mode. Useless amplifier. Apart from that, I heard no sound difference between the players.

My sister came and visited (had nothing to do with sound and hifi). She had to switch between the players and I listened blindly. No difference.

By the way, her comment: "You are an middle-aged man, what kind of nonsense are you doing."
Sets my curiosity and has fun at the same time. .... Okay, maybe she had a point.

Those were my listening impressions. Have you tried doing something similar? How good, or bad player do you think is needed before you can hear the difference? It also depends on which amplifier and speaker you use, of course.

I would have thought CD players are similar to DACs, long been a solved problem so why should there be meaningful differences between 2 modern spinners.

 

[DanielT]

You should probably not hear any difference as long as THD + N / SINAD is below the level of audibility plus steady frequency response.

Actually, Im most fascinated by how much good sound from a used player bought for $ 30 you can get.

Tested mostly because I had the two players and nothing directly better to do at the moment.

 

[Grumpish]

"You are an middle-aged man, what kind of nonsense are you doing."
Sets my curiosity and has fun at the same time. .... Okay, maybe she had a point.

The state of your hearing is going to be a very big factor as well, age-related hearing loss can creep up on people unnoticed for many years. I didn't notice it at first, and was then in denial for a number of years. I wouldn't even bother trying to do this now , and definitely not with Rimsky Korsakov's Scheherazade - that gorgeous violin solo in the last movement, I can't hear the violin at all unless I give it so much boost in the upper ranges that the amp is well into clipping.

 

[pma]

The DAC producers are making “better and better” DACs with SINAD numbers improved to infinity and several decades above any audible limits. Sometimes the race for numbers results in worsening other parameters, like in case of Topping preamp input impedance. This race for numbers is only for marketing purposes, to put the best numbers on comparable charts. Nothing in common with audibility. And tells nothing about really important points like built quality and reliability and lifetime.

 

[virtua]

The DAC producers are making “better and better” DACs with SINAD numbers improved to infinity and several decades above any audible limits. Sometimes the race for numbers results in worsening other parameters, like in case of Topping preamp input impedance. This race for numbers is only for marketing purposes, to put the best numbers on comparable charts. Nothing in common with audibility. And tells nothing about really important points like built quality and reliability and lifetime.

The only notable difference I've been able to spot with amplifiers is that some have an audible noise floor and some don't, but only in the devices which are either designed poorly (Cavalli Tube Hybrid) or are much older than state of the art stuff we have now (Fiio E10 Olympus). I'm particularly sensitive to audible noise floors, having to sell my JBL LSR305's because I couldn't stand it in near field and planning on selling my Yamaha HS5's which are much better than even the LSR305's in that department. None of the headphone amplifiers I've owned have bothered me regarding noise floor, even with my most sensitive IEMs. Now imagine all the people who are completely happy with their LSR305s or all the people who said they couldn't even hear the noise. Even with the level of perfection we have attained now, many people can get away with a whole lot less and either not notice it or not care. So with that perspective, if the difference between 80db and 90db SINAD likely wouldn't matter to a lot of people, how much do people think the difference between 110 and 120 would mean? Keeping in mind that roughly every 6 to 7db is perceptually twice as loud/quiet. I believe the difference between DACs would be even less so, as you aren't trying to push the gain higher and higher like you are with amplifiers, which is likely where a lot of the noise floor comes from.

So, I completely agree with what you're saying. Instead of chasing after SINAD and more largely inaudible performance, getting closer and closer to the cusp of reaching levels you can't exceed due to thermal noise barriers, companies should try to make devices which have a nicer looking design next time, or better build quality, reliability, better fit and finish and better/more features. I know we don't listen with our eyes or hands, but the way a piece of gear looks and feels, the quality of the build will affect our perception when using it. We all like stuff that looks nice and feels nice to use. When I pull out my headphones like LCD2s or Anandas, I think about how nice the designs are. Amps and DACs are the same. It's stuff like this that matters much more than another 3 decibels of completely inaudible SINAD in terms of user experience in my opinion.

 

[MC_RME]

My sister came and visited (had nothing to do with sound and hifi). She had to switch between the players and I listened blindly. No difference.

You did it all wrong. You should have reversed L/R at one player unintentionally and unnoticed, then write a 2 page story and record a 10 minute video on how big the listening differences between two CD players can be...

On the other hand you saved a lot of your lifetime from being wasted.

 

[steve59]

There's units from Rega that read a disc and adjust the amount of error correction to use for each disc, track, idk, but I would expect in a hi rez system there are cases and when using a 20 year old cd player I would expect using the digital outs to a new dac would provide audible improvements. If our audio memory is as short as many suggest, 2 seconds than you really need to know how to make useful comparisons.

 

[MaxBuck]

I've never heard any differences between CD players, even when comparing quite expensive models to the cheapest ones in the store. IMO it's all imaginary.

Pick outstanding transducers and amplification that's clean and provides sufficient power. That gives the best possible sound, or at least that's what I believe.

 

[egellings]

If there is any sound differences in CD players, It would be due to variations in the analog section rather than in the digital part. A current-to-voltage converter op amp not up to the task could place an audible artifact upon the sound. If this op amp is capable, then differences in S.Q. would disappear.

 

[Pdxwayne]

Got an idea last week. Connected a Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570, and a CD- player Marantz CD5001 to the pre amp. It has line selectors.

Went to the local flea market and managed to find duplicates, CDs. Exactly the same CDs, the same recording on the discs. Same master. Enter with the discs in the players. I think they have the same strength on the output because it sounded just as loud. Trimming, sync of the sound. When I switched between them, the music was in the same place. Result. I could not hear a shit difference. I probably dont have golden ears, or too bad amplifier and or speakers. The CDs, which I managed to find duplicates of, were one with Scheherazade, op. 35 by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. So it was also music that need a decent hifi equipment to sound good . Of course
when I turned the volume up really high, I succeeded with Scheherazade go get the amplifier in clipping mode. Useless amplifier. Apart from that, I heard no sound difference between the players.

My sister came and visited (had nothing to do with sound and hifi). She had to switch between the players and I listened blindly. No difference.

By the way, her comment: "You are an middle-aged man, what kind of nonsense are you doing."
Sets my curiosity and has fun at the same time. .... Okay, maybe she had a point.

Those were my listening impressions. Have you tried doing something similar? How good, or bad player do you think is needed before you can hear the difference? It also depends on which amplifier and speaker you use, of course.

I suggest you also test your hearing sensitivity.

Start with 0.5db online blind tests. Post your results here.

https://www.audiocheck.net/blindtests_level.php?lvl=0.5

 

[DanielT]

The state of your hearing is going to be a very big factor as well, age-related hearing loss can creep up on people unnoticed for many years. I didn't notice it at first, and was then in denial for a number of years. I wouldn't even bother trying to do this now , and definitely not with Rimsky Korsakov's Scheherazade - that gorgeous violin solo in the last movement, I can't hear the violin at all unless I give it so much boost in the upper ranges that the amp is well into clipping.

The amplifier may be ok. Useless ears.

As someone said: When I was young, I had the hearing but no money to buy quality hifi. Now that I'm older, I have the money but not the hearing.

Just accept the fact. The ability to hear higher frequencies decreases with age.

 

[Alexanderc]

Got an idea last week. Connected a Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570, and a CD- player Marantz CD5001 to the pre amp. It has line selectors.

Went to the local flea market and managed to find duplicates, CDs. Exactly the same CDs, the same recording on the discs. Same master. Enter with the discs in the players. I think they have the same strength on the output because it sounded just as loud. Trimming, sync of the sound. When I switched between them, the music was in the same place. Result. I could not hear a shit difference. I probably dont have golden ears, or too bad amplifier and or speakers. The CDs, which I managed to find duplicates of, were one with Scheherazade, op. 35 by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. So it was also music that need a decent hifi equipment to sound good . Of course
when I turned the volume up really high, I succeeded with Scheherazade go get the amplifier in clipping mode. Useless amplifier. Apart from that, I heard no sound difference between the players.

My sister came and visited (had nothing to do with sound and hifi). She had to switch between the players and I listened blindly. No difference.

By the way, her comment: "You are an middle-aged man, what kind of nonsense are you doing."
Sets my curiosity and has fun at the same time. .... Okay, maybe she had a point.

Those were my listening impressions. Have you tried doing something similar? How good, or bad player do you think is needed before you can hear the difference? It also depends on which amplifier and speaker you use, of course.

I’ve done this exact thing (different specific units), with these exact results. I doubt I would ever hear a difference between two CD players no matter if I had a $100 system or a $100k system. That was one of the first big reasons I came to this forum.

 

[levimax]

I pick up used DVD /SACD players when I see them in the thrifts for $10 or less. I have given them to friends that want to add CD playback to their systems and I have one in one of my systems. While some of them have problems the ones that work sound excellent playing either CD or SACD or movies through their analog outputs. I have hooked up a dedicated DAC but can tell no difference. As per @pma DAC's, even ones inside modest players, have been performing well for decades and even if their number are not as good as the latest and greatest they are "transparent" to human ears.

 

[DanielT]

The DAC producers are making “better and better” DACs with SINAD numbers improved to infinity and several decades above any audible limits. Sometimes the race for numbers results in worsening other parameters, like in case of Topping preamp input impedance. This race for numbers is only for marketing purposes, to put the best numbers on comparable charts. Nothing in common with audibility. And tells nothing about really important points like built quality and reliability and lifetime.

I think that in a video on Youtube, Amir mentioned exactly what you said. Of course it may seem a little unnecessary to hunt even lower, for example SINAD in DAC, only for the sake of the matter if it is still far below what you can hear.

Of course, all distortion is added to the system and is what in the end ends up in the headphones / speakers. With that in mind, maybe the difference in these few%, few difference in sound dB for sensible modern DACs does not play such a big role compared to what especially speakers can do with unwanted noise, distortion regarding producing good sound

 

[Robin L]

You should probably not hear any difference as long as THD + N / SINAD is below the level of audibility plus steady frequency response.

Actually, Im most fascinated by how much good sound from a used player bought for $ 30 you can get.

Tested mostly because I had the two players and nothing directly better to do at the moment.

I got a Sony Blu-Ray player from a thrift store with coax digital audio out for $6. Ordered a replacement remote for just a little more online. . Hooked up to my Topping E/L 30 combo, sounds the same as my USB from the computer. Amazing how cheap good soud is these days.

 

[ezra_s]

Got an idea last week. Connected a Blu-ray, Sony BDP-S570, and a CD- player Marantz CD5001 to the pre amp. It has line selectors.

Went to the local flea market and managed to find duplicates, CDs. Exactly the same CDs, the same recording on the discs. Same master. Enter with the discs in the players. I think they have the same strength on the output because it sounded just as loud. Trimming, sync of the sound. When I switched between them, the music was in the same place. Result. I could not hear a shit difference. I probably dont have golden ears, or too bad amplifier and or speakers. The CDs, which I managed to find duplicates of, were one with Scheherazade, op. 35 by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov. So it was also music that need a decent hifi equipment to sound good . Of course
when I turned the volume up really high, I succeeded with Scheherazade go get the amplifier in clipping mode. Useless amplifier. Apart from that, I heard no sound difference between the players.

My sister came and visited (had nothing to do with sound and hifi). She had to switch between the players and I listened blindly. No difference.

By the way, her comment: "You are an middle-aged man, what kind of nonsense are you doing."
Sets my curiosity and has fun at the same time. .... Okay, maybe she had a point.

Those were my listening impressions. Have you tried doing something similar? How good, or bad player do you think is needed before you can hear the difference? It also depends on which amplifier and speaker you use, of course.

In my first days starting with hi-fi gear I tried my "CD -> RME DAC -> Moon audio 220i" vs "CD -> Moon Audio 220i". Volume was leveled so I just had to switch inputs in the Moon audio 220i to see if there was any difference. So I started switching back and forth...

Since the CD has burr brown DAC and the RME has AKM I expected some difference.. You had to see my face when I couldn't hear anything different. It was as a good lesson.

 

[DanielT]

You did it all wrong. You should have reversed L/R at one player unintentionally and unnoticed, then write a 2 page story and record a 10 minute video on how big the listening differences between two CD players can be...

On the other hand you saved a lot of your lifetime from being wasted.

It's an idea. I will once again involve my sister in this. She can be a helper. How happy she will be.
...not...As you say , saved a lot of your lifetime from being wasted. But I'm glass half full guy. Consider all the fine Scheherazade, op. 35 by Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov I listened to during my testing, comparative study ... or what you might call it

The only thing is a CD player of the highest quality vs my Sony . $ 30 flea market Blu-Ray player vs extremely expensive CD player. Hear some difference? I'm skeptical.

 

[DanielT]

See several with similar experiences. Well, it's not really that weird. With decent new players, this will be the result.

Like modern DACs. Incredibly high performance for low price.

Better to try something else. If you have room in picture 1. It would probably not be such a stupid idea to go down to the store and buy miscellaneous on what can be seen in picture 2-4. For the sake of the good sound.

 

[mhardy6647]

The DAC producers are making “better and better” DACs with SINAD numbers improved to infinity

I was gonna figure out how many dB that was but I couldn't figure out log(infinity).