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What is the impact on amplifier power / SPL from filtering out low frequencies - crossover, subwoofer, LPF

But then again the opposite might happen.
I didn't read that linked thread. But I wonder if this is a real world issue? It would be widespread with the use of AVR's where the internal DSP is high passing the internal amplifier in almost all of home theater setups. I also wonder about professional installations where high passing the top end and the use of subwoofers is mandatory for reaching the desired SPL.
 
I didn't read that linked thread. But I wonder if this is a real world issue? It would be widespread with the use of AVR's where the internal DSP is high passing the internal amplifier in almost all of home theater setups. I also wonder about professional installations where high passing the top end and the use of subwoofers is mandatory for reaching the desired SPL.
I wish you would read it. Both of the Steely Dan tracks mentioned there, "Two Against Nature" and "The Last Mall" are such that HP filtering (80Hz, 24dB) causes a few dB greater peak level than the original. I wanted to check before replying and I get similar results to what @RayDunzl did. Seems real world issue to me. I can't speak to every case of applying DSP like the ones you mention but it seems to me headroom should be created before you apply DSP.
 
I wish you would read it. Both of the Steely Dan tracks mentioned there, "Two Against Nature" and "The Last Mall" are such that HP filtering (80Hz, 24dB) causes a few dB greater peak level than the original. I wanted to check before replying and I get similar results to what @RayDunzl did. Seems real world issue to me. I can't speak to every case of applying DSP like the ones you mention but it seems to me headroom should be created before you apply DSP.
Yes even some of the tracks I tried sometimes have higher peaks after filtering. I don't see any controversy in that.
 
I wish you would read it. Both of the Steely Dan tracks mentioned there, "Two Against Nature" and "The Last Mall" are such that HP filtering (80Hz, 24dB) causes a few dB greater peak level than the original. I wanted to check before replying and I get similar results to what @RayDunzl did. Seems real world issue to me. I can't speak to every case of applying DSP like the ones you mention but it seems to me headroom should be created before you apply DSP.
I read it, and the key takeaway for me was its connection to du/dt, similar to what we observe in frequency converters. Back EMF from inductive loads becomes more significant at higher frequencies, making voltage peaks more likely to occur when the amplifier is high-passed.
If that understanding is accurate, I agree that it's a real-world phenomenon. However, because high-passed amplifiers require less current, they still need to supply less power than non-high-passed amplifiers in the same application. Just make sure that the high-passed amplifier is not voltage-limited.
 
The area that gets the most energy in songs is not the 30-80Hz,yes,it's also demanding but peak finder with most genres puts it at the 100-250Hz range,where the impact lies,where the boot stinks,where the big brass play,etc.

Division definitely helps but there must be a driver (+cabinet volume) above the subs that can handle this also,it's not only about amp power.
 
The area that gets the most energy in songs is not the 30-80Hz,yes,it's also demanding but peak finder with most genres puts it at the 100-250Hz range,where the impact lies,where the boot stinks,where the big brass play,etc.
We have two graphs that say otherwise:
1727798446863.png Spectrum_of_music_for_reviewing-1.png

Would you mind linking a source?
 
I read it, and the key takeaway for me was its connection to du/dt, similar to what we observe in frequency converters. Back EMF from inductive loads becomes more significant at higher frequencies, making voltage peaks more likely to occur when the amplifier is high-passed.
If that understanding is accurate, I agree that it's a real-world phenomenon. However, because high-passed amplifiers require less current, they still need to supply less power than non-high-passed amplifiers in the same application. Just make sure that the high-passed amplifier is not voltage-limited.
I agree with this I think, but usually high voltage rails go hand in hand with overall power capability. I think it would be a little odd to be looking for an amp with high voltage rail that can't deliver a lot of power.
 
We have two graphs that say otherwise:
View attachment 396110 View attachment 396111

Would you mind linking a source?
Here's a chart from example,peak vs average:

1727895636290.png
Lows may look higher but the added 30-80Hz energy is lower or comparable than the added 80-250Hz.

It's from this thread which is about 100 songs from various threads analyzed.


1727895822730.png

Needless to say the my collection (classical) is even flatter than this and if talking about peaks way more energy at the midbass area.
 
I agree with this I think, but usually high voltage rails go hand in hand with overall power capability. I think it would be a little odd to be looking for an amp with high voltage rail that can't deliver a lot of power.
This has long been the traditional approach to amplifier design: an unregulated power supply with relatively high voltage but limited current capacity, along with large capacitor reserves. It offers strong peak power but lacks in sustained power delivery.
This approach has proven to be highly effective for the requirements we have for an amplifier.
 
Most conventional amps have a power supply that will decrease in voltage if driven with a lot of loud bass. If you highpass that amp, you virualy increase the supply voltage. Which gives the remaining frequency range more headroom before clipping. There may be more advantages, like less heat produced and semi conductors working more linear, but this is the main reason for better sound from the amp.
The midwoofer will do less excursion, resulting in a better midrange reproduction, passive components see less current. All that leading to less distortion not only at elevated levels.
So not only does your sub give extended bass response, but it also reduces non linearities of the main speaker. Makinge them sound like some more expensive version of themselves.
The average main will sound audible better, high passed with a subwoofer. Using no high pass with a sub is simply making the investment less audible value.

Now, if you only add a sub and still feed the main speaker full range, if you get the settings right, have a very good amp and limit the SPL, this may come close. As soon as you crank it up or your main amp is more of a mediocre design, you will hear quite drastically what I described. Increased level will muddy the sound, just like before, just with more low impact. Often very ugly, because the crossover of woofer and sub doesn't fit. These are the people that tell you they don't like sub woofer, which is simple nonsense. If you are driving a bicycle and get run over by a car, you may not like automobiles, but still use an ampulance for a quick trip to the hospital. Any 3-way is in some way a sub woofer combination. Just in a single cabinet. Some use sub's for each stereo speaker, what about that?

Such an installation with a sub and without high pass is the same as bi-amping. You only will not get much of an improvement, except for the low end the sub can deliver.
Maybe read opinions about bi-amping to get an idea.
 
I don't think this is the proper way to consider this however. Nothing wrong with the info. The issue is with a given piece of music, if you filter the lows to a sub how much does that free up for the main speaker. Those effects related to how loud something sounds to us at different frequencies is already baked into the mastering done for the music.
Has anyone found the answer to this? How much the load on an AVR is lessened by crossing over at different frequencies?
 
I've come across this video which is shocking in terms of the demands of low frequencies at same SPL as high frequencies.

It's the only analysis, if you can call it that, that I've seen. It has now become the de facto bible of power needs of all audiophiles and yet only has 19,000 views. Does anyone know of others?

Based on this, a crossover of 100hz with a sub may reduce power usage from 600 watts to 40 or less.

 
Most conventional amps have a power supply that will decrease in voltage if driven with a lot of loud bass. If you highpass that amp, you virualy increase the supply voltage. Which gives the remaining frequency range more headroom before clipping. There may be more advantages, like less heat produced and semi conductors working more linear, but this is the main reason for better sound from the amp.
The midwoofer will do less excursion, resulting in a better midrange reproduction, passive components see less current. All that leading to less distortion not only at elevated levels.
So not only does your sub give extended bass response, but it also reduces non linearities of the main speaker. Makinge them sound like some more expensive version of themselves.
The average main will sound audible better, high passed with a subwoofer. Using no high pass with a sub is simply making the investment less audible value.

Now, if you only add a sub and still feed the main speaker full range, if you get the settings right, have a very good amp and limit the SPL, this may come close. As soon as you crank it up or your main amp is more of a mediocre design, you will hear quite drastically what I described. Increased level will muddy the sound, just like before, just with more low impact. Often very ugly, because the crossover of woofer and sub doesn't fit. These are the people that tell you they don't like sub woofer, which is simple nonsense. If you are driving a bicycle and get run over by a car, you may not like automobiles, but still use an ampulance for a quick trip to the hospital. Any 3-way is in some way a sub woofer combination. Just in a single cabinet. Some use sub's for each stereo speaker, what about that?

Such an installation with a sub and without high pass is the same as bi-amping. You only will not get much of an improvement, except for the low end the sub can deliver.
Maybe read opinions about bi-amping to get an idea.

Your point is that low frequencies affect the amp negatively, is that correct? So passively bi-amping with a single amp should result in double load and therefore worse results especially at high volume. If playing full range muddies the sound up, then bi-amping should really muddy it up.

Hmm, not what I heard with my system and I have problematic ears (essentially they go crazy when something sounds different or worse). I've been bi-amping for 15 years, I'd have noticed muddy sound especially at high volumes. If anything, my bass sounds really good.

I use the following track after 5:30 when the bass drum comes in with the very high frequencies. It's very clean - when I test I'll play very loud but I can't listen to it for long. Tiesto's love comes again also goes crazy at one point with a cacophony but the AVR keeps it clean.


I'm just stating my experience with an AVR AMP that's powering double stereo. I have a sub now and maybe I'll run a test when the family is not here.

What you're saying makes sense but it's not been my experience.
 
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Entirely content- and load-dependent

yeah, I understand that but there could be a test or a general sense. It's akin to measuring a performance of a GPU - it's game, resolution, and settings dependent and that's why they test 1 game or more (usually 30). No one has ever done this? We measure SINAD for crying out loud even though we all know it doesn't matter :)
 
I asked a similar question a while ago. Interesting responses - no simple answer, but worth a read.

Tldr: you might expect a modest 6dB boost in SPL (or a saving of the power needed to produce 6dB)
Thread 'What is the impact on amplifier power / SPL from filtering out low frequencies - crossover, subwoofer, LPF' https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...ow-frequencies-crossover-subwoofer-lpf.57374/
Check out the video I shared - low frequencies clearly have a huge impact and that's why even micro subwoofers claim peak of 2,500 watts.

I'm very surprised that no one has measured this using a movie scene or a track that's bass heavy and even looked at the difference a 40hz,60hz, 80hz, and 100hz crossover makes.
 
Lol, I still would like to have a concrete measurement that looks at the impact of 40hz, 60hz, 80hz crossovers. What is the impact of using a sub on a system? For AVRs that get pummeled by huge differences in volume and low frequencies, that would be probably the #1 question to ask.

Surprisingly, I have done more real-life testing than almost anyone using my Marantz SR8002 and powering the LLCRR and 2 surrounds full range without a sub. That AVR could apparently drive a spaceship to Mars at 20hz (kidding of course but it never faltered even with 5 demanding channels in >20,000 hrs of operation) :)
 
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