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What is the difference to play 80Hz SINE signal with 80 dBZ SPL between Large and Small speaker?

MengW

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The large loudspeaker is 15 inches, the small loudspeaker is 8 inches, and they have the good performance to play the 80Hz with -0dB.

And the listen distance and listening position SPL sound level and the position is same.

What is the difference to play the 80Hz SINE signal when the listening position is 80dBz SPL?

--
I found out these answers,
1. The size of the large speaker is harder to layout and more limited in the small room, more SBIR problem?
BUT, the size of some 14 or 15 inches loudspeaker (w371, 14 inches, 0.4x0.4m) is not too bigger than some big size 8 inches (Quested V2108 0.34x0.365m).

2. The directivity performance of the 15 inches loudspeaker is better.
If at the 500Hz, YES, the 15 inches directivity is better. https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/bitstream...Kantamaa_Olli_2020.pdf?sequence=2&isAllowed=y
BUT, if at the 80Hz, if the listen distance is about 2.5 meter, the directivity performance of the 95% large loudspeaker is close to the small loudspeaker, right?

3. Large speaker is closer to SURFACE sound sources, and small speakers are closer to POINT sources.
BUT, if the listen distance is about 2.5 meter, the difference is small, right?

4. The group delay, distortion, timbre of large speaker is better to play the low frequency music.
BUT, if only to play the 80HZ SINE signal, there is no quality to feel?

5. The X max is different.
1679367726012.png
1679367734631.png

BUT, if the small speaker is not cheap and have good drive performance, to play the 80Hz sine signal should be well, right?
--
IF the low frequency absorption performance of the room is good, for example, the 50Hz decay -15dB in 50ms, 50Hz decay -25dB in 100ms, T30/Topt value of 50Hz is about 350ms.

IF the listen distance is same, for example 2.5 meter,
Why can't I use small speakers in a large room?
Why can't I use large speakers in a small room?

--
May I compare speakers to electric fans?
Even if the air volume is the same, is the feeling of a big fan and a small fan different?
--
Does a large room require more power or energy to fill?
Play the 80Hz SINE signal, if the listening position sound level is 80 dBZ SPL, is the energy power radiated from the big speaker to the room close to the small speaker?
BUT, no matter how loud the sound of the mobile phone is, does it seem that it can't give the feeling of filling a large room?

--
Although I have learned some opinions on this issue, but I'm still confused.

Thanks a lot.
 
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DonH56

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Disclaimer: I am not a speaker designer.

At 80 Hz a wavelength is about 14.1 feet (4.3 m) using 1127 ft/s for the speed of sound (1127 ft/s / 80 Hz). A driver (speaker cone) starts to become more directional ("beam') as wavelengths approach roughly 1/2x~1x the wavelength so either the 8" or the 15" speaker is basically a point source at 80 Hz. SBIR is also the same for either at 80 Hz; boundary interaction will decrease as frequency increases and the speaker starts to become more directional (beam). A larger driver often has greater excursion (distance it can move) and thus greater output potential, and usually higher mass and lower resonance so can play deeper, louder, than the small speaker. But there are many factors in designing speakers, including the size and type (ported or sealed) of the box (which also affects the sensitivity of the speaker -- how much power it takes to reach given SPL), so you really have to know a lot more about the driver and the box it fits.

Loudness is affected by how far you sit from the speaker and how it interacts with the room. If you sit further away from the speaker because the room is large, then you will need more power. If the room is very reflective with hard surfaces ("live") then it will be louder than a room that is "dead" with lots of absorption (from sound treatment or just rugs, furniture, and people). "Pressurizing" a room in the bass region depends upon direct and reflected sound waves reinforcing each other, so a larger room requires more power and will have a lower "resonance" frequency.

A mobile phone's speaker does not have large enough driver, high enough power, and low enough frequency response to "fill" a room.

HTH - Don
 
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MengW

MengW

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Disclaimer: I am not a speaker designer.

At 80 Hz a wavelength is about 14.1 feet (4.3 m) using 1127 ft/s for the speed of sound (1127 ft/s / 80 Hz). A driver (speaker cone) starts to become more directional ("beam') as wavelengths approach roughly 1/2x~1x the wavelength so either the 8" or the 15" speaker is basically a point source at 80 Hz. SBIR is also the same for either at 80 Hz; boundary interaction will decrease as frequency increases and the speaker starts to become more directional (beam). A larger driver often has greater excursion (distance it can move) and thus greater output potential, and usually higher mass and lower resonance so can play deeper, louder, than the small speaker. But there are many factors in designing speakers, including the size and type (ported or sealed) of the box (which also affects the sensitivity of the speaker -- how much power it takes to reach given SPL), so you really have to know a lot more about the driver and the box it fits.

Loudness is affected by how far you sit from the speaker and how it interacts with the room. If you sit further away from the speaker because the room is large, then you will need more power. If the room is very reflective with hard surfaces ("live") then it will be louder than a room that is "dead" with lots of absorption (from sound treatment or just rugs, furniture, and people). "Pressurizing" a room in the bass region depends upon direct and reflected sound waves reinforcing each other, so a larger room requires more power and will have a lower "resonance" frequency.

A mobile phone's speaker does not have large enough driver, high enough power, and low enough frequency response to "fill" a room.

HTH - Don
Thanks for your reply.

To take an extreme example, if in one anechoic lab room, the test microphone is placed 1 meter away from speaker , and the sound pressure level measured by the microphone is 80 dBz SPL, what is the difference between the large speaker and the small speaker to play the 80Hz sine signal?

If the speaker of the mobile phone cannot reach 80dB SPL, then to reduce the sound level to 60dBz SPL, what is the difference between the large speaker and an mobile phone speaker to play 120Hz sine signal in the anechoic room?

What exactly does it mean to fill the room? The speed of sound is the same, so it will quickly fill the entire room, right?

Is there any input of the difference between the large and small speaker to play the same and not too low frequency signal with the same sound level of listening position?

Thanks.
 

Sokel

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What exactly does it mean to fill the room? The speed of sound is the same, so it will quickly fill the entire room, right?

Is there any input of the difference between the large and small speaker to play the same and not too low frequency signal with the same sound level of listening position?

Thanks.
You're answering yourself with one word:

SPL (Sound Pressure Level),not speed level.
 
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MengW

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You're answering yourself with one word:

SPL (Sound Pressure Level),not speed level.
Sorry, I did got what you meant.

In my notes, the sound level should be corrected to sound pressure level, because it is measured by the test microphone.
 

DVDdoug

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If both speakers are putting-out the same frequency at the same SPL and the same distortion then there's no difference.

Generally, you can't get "realistic" bass that you can feel in your body from an 8-inch woofer. At some point physics come into play... Big things make low frequencies and small things make high frequencies... A kitten can't roar like a lion and a violin can't play low notes like a stand-up bass, etc.

But as DonH56 says, there are a LOT of variables (and compromises) in speaker design and a bigger woofer subwoofer doesn't always have better-stronger-deeper bass than a smaller woofer.
 

DonH56

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Thanks for your reply.

To take an extreme example, if in one anechoic lab room, the test microphone is placed 1 meter away from speaker , and the sound pressure level measured by the microphone is 80 dBz SPL, what is the difference between the large speaker and the small speaker to play the 80Hz sine signal?
As @DVDdoug said, if the SPL and distortion are the same, no difference, but chances are the distortion will be higher for the smaller driver at higher levels. A simple SPL meter will not show that since it is a broadband measuring device.

If the speaker of the mobile phone cannot reach 80dB SPL, then to reduce the sound level to 60dBz SPL, what is the difference between the large speaker and an mobile phone speaker to play 120Hz sine signal in the anechoic room?
Same answer as above. In all cases the cell phone's speaker is much, much smaller and will not be able to output the same level with the same distortion as a larger driver. If you are trying to match the bass output from a cell phone to a full-sized speaker the cell phone will lose.

What exactly does it mean to fill the room? The speed of sound is the same, so it will quickly fill the entire room, right?
Standing waves within the room create pressure peaks and valleys that can be felt and heard. Reflections, especially at higher frequencies, provide a bigger sense of "space" in the sound compared to an anechoic environment. For deep bass, large peaks are as much or more "felt" than heard.

Is there any input of the difference between the large and small speaker to play the same and not too low frequency signal with the same sound level of listening position?

Thanks.
I am not sure I understand this question. If it is the same as above, the answer is also the same, and again as @DVDdoug said if both can produce the same SPL at the same level of distortion then they'll sound the same. It is highly unlikely that is the case, however.

HTH - Don
 
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MengW

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As @DVDdoug said, if the SPL and distortion are the same, no difference, but chances are the distortion will be higher for the smaller driver at higher levels. A simple SPL meter will not show that since it is a broadband measuring device.


Same answer as above. In all cases the cell phone's speaker is much, much smaller and will not be able to output the same level with the same distortion as a larger driver. If you are trying to match the bass output from a cell phone to a full-sized speaker the cell phone will lose.


Standing waves within the room create pressure peaks and valleys that can be felt and heard. Reflections, especially at higher frequencies, provide a bigger sense of "space" in the sound compared to an anechoic environment. For deep bass, large peaks are as much or more "felt" than heard.


I am not sure I understand this question. If it is the same as above, the answer is also the same, and again as @DVDdoug said if both can produce the same SPL at the same level of distortion then they'll sound the same. It is highly unlikely that is the case, however.

HTH - Don
Thanks a lot.

Therefore, the saying that people often say, "a large room needs a large speaker", can it be understood that the listening distance in a large room is usually far, so the speaker needs a higher sound pressure level performance?
Are there more reasons?

How many reasons for this sentence "a large room needs a large speaker"?Is it just listening distance and sound pressure level?

--
IF,
The small system is 2.1 channel with 5 inches x 2 + 12 inches subwoofer by bass management, max spl is more than 104 dB SPL.
The large system is 2.0 with 15 inches x 2.
The room acoustic performance is very good. The frequency response performance of the small and large system is similar or almost same.
The listening distance is not too far, e.g. which is 2.5 meter, the small system capability is enough to handle with.

Then, the feeling of "fill the room" should be same, right?

--
In my notes, the reason why I mentioned the mobile phone speaker is just to say that the mobile phone speaker gives me the feeling that it cannot fill the room.
Similarly, I can't feel the shock of big movies on my mobile phone screen.
“Big rooms need big bulbs?”
"Big rooms need big fans?"

However, I can't find a reasonable logic to the principle of the speaker's sound.
I think that if a small speaker can emit enough power, it should also be able to fill a room.
 

BDWoody

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I think that if a small speaker can emit enough power, it should also be able to fill a room.

I think of a speaker as a motor, and in that context I don't disagree. A smaller driver will need more excursion and a more powerful magnet, but with enough power (and assuming equivalent distortion, which is not a given), I don't know why they wouldn't sound the same either.
 

theREALdotnet

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A smaller driver will need more excursion and a more powerful magnet, but with enough power (and assuming equivalent distortion, which is not a given), I don't know why they wouldn't sound the same either.

That’s my understanding, too. Although, the larger excursion required by the smaller diameter driver is where the problems usually come from.
 
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MengW

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Let's cut out the low frequency cause, do big rooms still need big speakers?

Does a large room need a larger midrange and tweeter?

Is the high-performance 5-inch midrange and 1-inch tweeter enough to be used in a large living room?

Is it a high-performance 5-inch midrange and 1-inch tweeter that can "fill" a large room?
 

DonH56

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Thanks a lot.

Therefore, the saying that people often say, "a large room needs a large speaker", can it be understood that the listening distance in a large room is usually far, so the speaker needs a higher sound pressure level performance?
Are there more reasons?
Greater output with lower distortion, yes. SPL falls off with distance at around 3 to 6 dB for each doubling in distance. 3 dB requires twice the power and 6 dB is 4 times the power so the difference in power from listening at 1 m to just 2 m is between 2 and 4 times more power for the same volume. If you listen at 4 m you may need 6~12 dB more power, which is 4 to 16 times the power compared to listening at 1 m. Exactly how much depends upon the room. You can play around with a room SPL calculator like this: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html

How many reasons for this sentence "a large room needs a large speaker"?Is it just listening distance and sound pressure level?
And distortion, do not forget distortion. And as shown above you quickly need a lot more power. A smaller driver, or array of them, might be good enough but deep bass takes much more power to sound as loud as midrange frequencies so larger, and multiway, speakers tend to be used -- along with good subwoofers to handle the deepest bass.
--
IF,
The small system is 2.1 channel with 5 inches x 2 + 12 inches subwoofer by bass management, max spl is more than 104 dB SPL.
The large system is 2.0 with 15 inches x 2.
The room acoustic performance is very good. The frequency response performance of the small and large system is similar or almost same.
The listening distance is not too far, e.g. which is 2.5 meter, the small system capability is enough to handle with.

Then, the feeling of "fill the room" should be same, right?
As long as each speaker can achieve the desired SPL without distorting. But the 5" speaker may not be able to reach low enough in frequency to cross over to the sub at 80 Hz or below, and may not be able to handle enough power to provide the SPL you need when positioned further away. That means you will be able to locate the sub by ear and that may corrupt the stereo image. A 5" speaker is also unlikely to provide sufficient clean (low-distortion) bass at 80 Hz and probably needs a lot of bass boost to play flat to low frequencies. There is not a clear line between "too small" and "large enough" as it depends upon the specific speakers, subwoofer, room, and your listening preference.

It may be possible to design a long-throw 5" driver to fill a large room, but manufacturers recognize a small speaker is usually used in a small room, so I doubt most 5" speakers will be able to handle the power to fill a large room.

In my notes, the reason why I mentioned the mobile phone speaker is just to say that the mobile phone speaker gives me the feeling that it cannot fill the room.
Similarly, I can't feel the shock of big movies on my mobile phone screen.
“Big rooms need big bulbs?”
"Big rooms need big fans?"
The speaker phone does not have the extended bass response and sufficient output to match the larger speakers. Look up "equal loudness curves" to get an idea how much more power deep bass requires. Your cell phone simply cannot put out that kind of power. Deep bass requires 20 dB or more greater SPL to be sound as loud as midrange (1 kHz) sound. 20 dB is 100 times the power. Your cell phone would explode.

A small bulb with very high output may be enough for a large room, and a small speaker with very high output may fill a large room with sound, but in either case there are severe design constraints that make it hard to design a small bulb with very high light output, or to design a very small speaker with very high acoustic output. Since it is easier to achieve with a larger bulb, or speaker, and most people think "large" for large rooms since they have more space, there is little reason for a manufacturer to produce small products for big rooms. There are physical problems building such products. A small light bulb with high output means a lot of heat in a very small area, which makes them unreliable and with shortened lifetime. Similar problems occur with small speakers; it is difficult to build a small speaker that produce very high volume with low distortion ad extended bass response.

As an aside, for midrange and above, compression drivers into horns can produce high output from small drivers, but the horn may be large.

However, I can't find a reasonable logic to the principle of the speaker's sound.
Many people have said several times the problem is a practical one, making a small speaker that can output the required SPL. That means a very big magnet, very long voice coil, special thermal design to handle the heat, and special materials to keep the cone from distorting. If you have all of that the small speaker can do the job, but it takes a very special design that will cost much more than a "usual" small speaker, so I suspect there is just not enough demand for manufacturers to make them.

I think that if a small speaker can emit enough power, it should also be able to fill a room.
The problem is most small speakers cannot emit enough power. Eventually the laws of physics apply (Look up Hofmann's Iron Law and other physics references) and you cannot make a strong enough magnet and long enough voice coil with speaker cone material that can provide the output required.

To go back to your cell phone example, how much power can its speaker take? Maybe <1 W? Your 5" speaker can probably take maybe 50 W, whereas the 12" driver can handle 200 W or more with long enough excursion and low enough distortion at normal listening levels to be useful. The smaller speaker is simply not designed for high enough output to fill a large room. It is not a normal use case (application). The problem is both theoretical, you run against physics trying to make a small driver output very high power and very low frequencies, and practical in that most people buy larger speakers for larger rooms.

IMO - Don
 
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MengW

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Greater output with lower distortion, yes. SPL falls off with distance at around 3 to 6 dB for each doubling in distance. 3 dB requires twice the power and 6 dB is 4 times the power so the difference in power from listening at 1 m to just 2 m is between 2 and 4 times more power for the same volume. If you listen at 4 m you may need 6~12 dB more power, which is 4 to 16 times the power compared to listening at 1 m. Exactly how much depends upon the room. You can play around with a room SPL calculator like this: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/splcalculator.html


And distortion, do not forget distortion. And as shown above you quickly need a lot more power. A smaller driver, or array of them, might be good enough but deep bass takes much more power to sound as loud as midrange frequencies so larger, and multiway, speakers tend to be used -- alng with good subwoofers to handle the deepest bass.

As long as each speaker can achieve the desired SPL without distorting. But the 5" speaker may not be able to reach low enough in frequency to cross over to the sub at 80 Hz or below, and may not be able to handle enough power to provide the SPL you need when positioned further away. That means you will be able to locate the sub by ear and that may corrupt the stereo image. A 5" speaker is also unlikely to provide sufficient clean (low-distortion) bass at 80 Hz and probably needs a lot of bass boost to play flat to low frequencies. There is not a clear line between "too small" and "large enough" as it depends upon the specific speakers, subwoofer, room, and your listening preference.

It may be possible to design a long-throw 5" driver to fill a large room, but manufacturers recognize a small speaker is usually used in a small room, so I doubt most 5" speakers will be able to handle the power to fill a large room.


The speaker phone does not have the extended bass response and sufficient output to match the larger speakers. Look up "equal loudness curves" to get an idea how much more power deep bass requires. Your cell phone simply cannot put out that kind of power. Deep bass requires 20 dB or more greater SPL to be sound as loud as midrange (1 kHz) sound. 20 dB is 100 times the power. Your cell phone would explode.

A small bulb with very high output may be enough for a large room, and a small speaker with very high output may fill a large room with sound, but in either case there are severe design constraints that make it hard to design a small bulb with very high light output, or to design a very small speaker with very high acoustic output. Since it is easier to achieve with a larger bulb, or speaker, and most people think "large" for large rooms since they have more space, there is little reason for a manufacturer to produce small products for big rooms. There are physical problems building such products. A small light bulb with high output means a lot of heat in a very small area, which makes them unreliable and with shortened lifetime. Similar problems occur with small speakers; it is difficult to build a small speaker that produce very high volume with low distortion ad extended bass response.

As an aside, for midrange and above, compression drivers into horns can produce high output from small drivers, but the horn may be large.


Many people have said several times the problem is a practical one, making a small speaker that can output the required SPL. That means a very big magnet, very long voice coil, special thermal design to handle the heat, and special materials to keep the cone from distorting. If you have all of that the small speaker can do the job, but it takes a very special design that will cost much more than a "usual" small speaker, so I suspect there is just not enough demand for manufacturers to make them.


The problem is most small speakers cannot emit enough power. Eventually the laws of physics apply (Look up Hofmann's Iron Law and other physics references) and you cannot make a strong enough magnet and long enough voice coil with speaker cone material that can provide the output required.

To go back to your cell phone example, how much power can its speaker take? Maybe <1 W? Your 5" speaker can probably take maybe 50 W, whereas the 12" driver can handle 200 W or more with long enough excursion and low enough distortion at normal listening levels to be useful. The smaller speaker is simply not designed for high enough output to fill a large room. It is not a normal use case (application). The problem is both theoretical, you run against physics trying to make a small driver output very high power and very low frequencies, and practical in that most people buy larger speakers for larger rooms.

IMO - Don
Very detailed reply, so appreciate.

The reason why I am confused, may be because I only want to find the answer from the acoustic principle blindly, but the answer may be more of some practical reasons.

I think I understand what your mean. I should update my thoughts after some more thinking.

Thanks.
 

audiofooled

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When it comes to your small fan/big fan analogy, loudspeaker transducers have similar properties when it comes to their natural frequency roll off. In order to couple enough air, you can change the angle of fan blades and put more power to the motor, to match a larger one.
When it comes to loudspeakers, you'll need roughly 6 of the 5 inch drivers to match a single 12", up to a certain frequency. The lower the frequency, a 12 inch driver will just continue going and 5 inch drivers will reach their excursion limit. Or 8 inch drivers, for that matter, you need 3 of them to better the 12 inch one. Transducers are very inefficient and there are always design tradeoffs so it is rarely the case that one design can satisfy multiple application purposes.
Room interaction further complicates the matter. So usually larger rooms and far field listening requires exponentially more power and larger drivers can handle more. We usually want more bass extension with less distortion and this is one of the design parameters which would basically dictate the size of the loudspeakers.
 

Keith_W

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I will put it this way: for a small driver to output the same SPL as a large driver, the swept volume has to be the same. This means cone excursion * cone area.

A large driver does not need to have as much excursion as a smaller driver. This means that the voice coil can be kept within its linear range throughout most of its operation. A smaller driver requires greater cone excursion to output the same volume. There are woofers designed specifically for large excursion and they typically have long and large motors with big, beefy suspension to help brake the cone at its limits. This picture illustrates the difference between the two types of woofers:

sub_cones.png


Of course, there are many designs in between.
 

DonH56

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IIRC doubling the driver area increases SPL by 3 dB, the same as doubling excursion. So a 5" driver must travel twice as far as a 10" driver for the same output (all else equal). That means the voice coil, magnet, and surround ("foam") must all be at least twice as long (and heavy) for the 5" driver to match the 10" driver. It is also more difficult to keep the movement linear over a longer distance to keep distortion the same. At some point it is just not practical to build a small driver that can equal the output of a large driver. This is mainly a problem for bass, where we need 10~100 times more output to sound as loud in the midrange. See equal loudness curves and notice how much more SPL is needed at low frequencies. Much less power is needed at higher frequencies, and smaller diameter drivers "beam" less, so we do not need great big drivers at higher frequencies.

 

thulle

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IIRC doubling the driver area increases SPL by 3 dB, the same as doubling excursion. So a 5" driver must travel twice as far as a 10" driver for the same output (all else equal).

Dude, a 5" driver has like 70 cm² surface area (SATORI 5" MW13TX-4 ), a 10" driver around 350 cm² (Scan-Speak 26W/4558T00 ), a factor of ~5, not 2.

@MengW

Say the 10" driver moves an inch, then the 5" driver has to move almost a foot to move the same amount of air, which is more than the width of the driver, so even if it's made up all of surround it gotta turn elastic to even reach that far. It's just physically impossible for the 5" driver to achieve this.
Even if we limit the excursion to something that the 5" driver can achieve, the area ratio between the cone and the surround of the cone will be smaller for the smaller driver, ie. the smaller driver has more surround area compared to cone area, while the larger driver has more cone area compared to surround area. Then remember that we try to make the cone rigid to avoid distortion, but the surround obviously can't be rigid or it wouldn't allow the cone to move, thus the different ratios automatically give more distortion from the smaller driver.
 

Sokel

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Dude, a 5" driver has like 70 cm² surface area (SATORI 5" MW13TX-4 ), a 10" driver around 350 cm² (Scan-Speak 26W/4558T00 ), a factor of ~5, not 2.
My calc reports 78.5 Sq in for the 10" and 19.65 sq in for the 5".
 

thulle

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My calc reports 78.5 Sq in for the 10" and 19.65 sq in for the 5".

You're kinda just calculating a circle between the mounting holes of a driver, not the actual area of the driver that moves.
 
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