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What is it about McIntosh?

Galliardist

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You are paying for the prestige of owning something with the Agostino name on it. You are also getting good performance and visual appeal as well, pricey as it is.

You mean this sort of excellent product? Where the company proudly included a technical report with a review sample, confirming highish distortion, with John Atkinson presuming underbiasing - given that they sent out that test report, deliberately set up that way or appalling QA?
And another sample that developed a fault during review?

I understand that D’Agostino has joined the subjectivist camp and we aren’t supposed to judge his products by measurements any more. But if he is achieving his results by getting someone to bias the amps by ear to achieve the magic, I’d suggest looking for that magic elsewhere.

And if poor QA was the cause, with a measurement taken, then…
 

dorakeg

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I understand that D’Agostino has joined the subjectivist camp and we aren’t supposed to judge his products by measurements any more. But if he is achieving his results by getting someone to bias the amps by ear to achieve the magic, I’d suggest looking for that magic elsewhere.

And if poor QA was the cause, with a measurement taken, then…

Yes, he did mention that he is not longer chasing after numbers. Someone did mention in another thread that it's similar to what nelson pass has done.

I would say that people like Dan and Nelson definitely know what they are doing, the type of sound they are after and how to achieve it.

Of course, their products are not meant for everyone and it's out of reach to most.
 

Galliardist

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Yes, he did mention that he is not longer chasing after numbers. Someone did mention in another thread that it's similar to what nelson pass has done.

I would say that people like Dan and Nelson definitely know what they are doing, the type of sound they are after and how to achieve it.

Of course, their products are not meant for everyone and it's out of reach to most.
You may be right, but that review and measurements are hardly encouraging, are they?

I don't believe we should give a free pass to a designer or company just for being famous.

If there was a consistent pattern of difference in D'Agostino product measurements I might not feel this way about them, but what I see here is poor QA and inconsistent build. It seems that way to a lesser extent with some of the other independently measured product from that company, and I'd personally suggest that buyers with tens of thousands of dollars to spend look elsewhere first - paying these prices, consistency and build quality should be the least a customer should expect.
 

phoenixdogfan

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You may be right, but that review and measurements are hardly encouraging, are they?

I don't believe we should give a free pass to a designer or company just for being famous.

If there was a consistent pattern of difference in D'Agostino product measurements I might not feel this way about them, but what I see here is poor QA and inconsistent build. It seems that way to a lesser extent with some of the other independently measured product from that company, and I'd personally suggest that buyers with tens of thousands of dollars to spend look elsewhere first - paying these prices, consistency and build quality should be the least a customer should expect.
On the plus side, how many other amplifier designers include built-in cupwarmers for their offerings? Picture also makes me wonder where the milk frother is hidden.

RelentlessPreampSilverFront.png
 

Tom C

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I expect folks spending that kind of money expect the product to have first-rate performance. I know I would. I would figure that someone like Nelson Pass or Dan D. Knows what he’s doing, and for that money I’d get breathtaking good looks and breathtaking good performance.
 

beefkabob

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On the plus side, how many other amplifier designers include built-in cupwarmers for their offerings? Picture also makes me wonder where the milk frother is hidden.
That says money > taste. It's hideous. Oh, but so finely crafted hideous. Sigh.

The only reason I look at my stereo is to change settings.
 

Galliardist

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On the plus side, how many other amplifier designers include built-in cupwarmers for their offerings? Picture also makes me wonder where the milk frother is hidden.

RelentlessPreampSilverFront.png
I expect folks spending that kind of money expect the product to have first-rate performance. I know I would. I would figure that someone like Nelson Pass or Dan D. Knows what he’s doing, and for that money I’d get breathtaking good looks and breathtaking good performance.
That's the Relentless setup. Power amp, close to a quarter of a million US... each. More for the preamp, still, you only need one of them.
So I suppose the Progression in that problem Stereophile review is entry level junk and we shouldn't expect miracles for only $45000.
You might want to compare the preamp numbers to the Topping Pre90. Breathtaking performance?! I doubt most of us could tell the difference blind though, so nothing lost really and you do get a couple more features for the money. You'd probably want to add in the cost of your own power station for the power amps as well, but if you can afford the Relentless pair you may well already own one.

Getting away from the sarcasm, that's not what these are about: performance only has to be good enough: but good enough at a kW into one ohm, the spec that matters, and to drive those ultra hard to drive expensive speakers that if you have this sort of money, you might be expected to own. They'll drive anything comfortably, mission accomplished.
 

TonyJZX

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the Relentless three piece setup... is $350k usd...

I look at this the same way I look at the Bugatti Veyron Chiron... there's a market out there for $2-3-5 mil. supercars and so theres also a market for ornate super art deco monoblock setups.

Another favorite of this place is the Gryphon Commanders $64k 64kg 140lb analog preamps and the whole monoblock setups.

It speaks out the 1% of society that has lots of money to spend and the companies that cater to that.

These are for the types who think a McIntosh 7200 + Sonus fabers is too downmarket...
 

dorakeg

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You may be right, but that review and measurements are hardly encouraging, are they?

I don't believe we should give a free pass to a designer or company just for being famous.

If there was a consistent pattern of difference in D'Agostino product measurements I might not feel this way about them, but what I see here is poor QA and inconsistent build. It seems that way to a lesser extent with some of the other independently measured product from that company, and I'd personally suggest that buyers with tens of thousands of dollars to spend look elsewhere first - paying these prices, consistency and build quality should be the least a customer should expect.

The reviews are actually very positive. As for the measurements, they are still pretty good. There are many reviews done by stereophile where the amps do not have excellent measurements but they sound extremely good.

Btw, Krell and Den didn't started out famous. It took him a lot of time and effort to build up krell brand and his reputation. So, I wouldnt say he was given a free pass. He earn it the hard way.
 

JaccoW

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McIntosh probably sounds very nice but they look way too much like early 2000's PC case mods with their green and blue LEDs.
Not my style.

2008 'Dark Blade' Case mod:
 

Galliardist

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The reviews are actually very positive. As for the measurements, they are still pretty good. There are many reviews done by stereophile where the amps do not have excellent measurements but they sound extremely good.

Btw, Krell and Den didn't started out famous. It took him a lot of time and effort to build up krell brand and his reputation. So, I wouldn't say he was given a free pass. He earn it the hard way.
I'm quite aware of the Krell story with its ups and downs. It still doesn't get him or them a free pass. I'm trying to be measured here - no company needs to have products that measure any better than the D'Agostino products as measured in most of the Stereophile and HiFi News reviews. I own pretty expensive devices with measurements behind those of Topping et al myself, so I'm not so bothered on that score.

At the price of that Progression power amp, that review and those measurements shouldn't have happened, though. Did you read it? The amps provided to the reviewer didn't sound the same. The measured amp had distortion that wouldn't have got past QA of any of the great old companies, and they sent their own measurements showing that was how it came out of the factory. If their customers are getting amps that sound different to each other, past reputation counts for nothing. I hope and believe it isn't the case of course.

And sure, the sighted subjective reviewers wrote nice words as they always seem to. Do as you will with those words. I'm not inclined to go further off topic in a thread meant to be about McIntosh not D'Agostino.
 

phoenixdogfan

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the Relentless three piece setup... is $350k usd...

I look at this the same way I look at the Bugatti Veyron Chiron... there's a market out there for $2-3-5 mil. supercars and so theres also a market for ornate super art deco monoblock setups.

Another favorite of this place is the Gryphon Commanders $64k 64kg 140lb analog preamps and the whole monoblock setups.

It speaks out the 1% of society that has lots of money to spend and the companies that cater to that.

These are for the types who think a McIntosh 7200 + Sonus fabers is too downmarket...
I'm sorry. I just don't think AV Electronics are Veblen goods. Just don't. If you have that kind of money you Buy a Bugatti, a 100 Meter Yacht laid out by an Italian designer, a property on the North Shore of Maui and a penthouse on billionaire's row, et al. Even those people don't buy Wilson Alexis', D'Augostino electronics, or Light Harmonic Dacs. Mostly, it's some nerdy orthodontist who's getting the really big paydays and doesn't want to put his cash into Sugarbabies for some reason known only to himself.
 

Sal1950

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I don't think I will be able to afford any of his products unless I strike lottery. They are way more expensive than krell.

I do agree they look great. The combination of aluminum and copper + guages and green lights. Gave me the impression of steam punk...
Being totally honest with myself, if price was no object I'd be hard torn between the Mc and D' gear, even with the D' being in the neighborhood of 10x more $. The Mc is beautiful in the old school sort of way and D' having the modern steam punk, hyper expensive machined case, etc.. I love em both.
But being poor, I'm happy to be able to be living in this era when I can satisfy my longing to own "the best" by being able to afford the best measuring and most accurate sounding stuff. :p
There's never been a better time to love listening to music at home.
 

Vacceo

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Being totally honest with myself, if price was no object I'd be hard torn between the Mc and D' gear, even with the D' being in the neighborhood of 10x more $. The Mc is beautiful in the old school sort of way and D' having the modern steam punk, hyper expensive machined case, etc.. I love em both.
But being poor, I'm happy to be able to be living in this era when I can satisfy my longing to own "the best" by being able to afford the best measuring and most accurate sounding stuff. :p
There's never been a better time to love listening to music at home.
I'd go Mc. At least they produce nice Hypex implementations.
 

dorakeg

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Being totally honest with myself, if price was no object I'd be hard torn between the Mc and D' gear, even with the D' being in the neighborhood of 10x more $. The Mc is beautiful in the old school sort of way and D' having the modern steam punk, hyper expensive machined case, etc.. I love em both.
But being poor, I'm happy to be able to be living in this era when I can satisfy my longing to own "the best" by being able to afford the best measuring and most accurate sounding stuff. :p
There's never been a better time to love listening to music at home.

Haha, why not have both?? Can start collecting gears from both companies!! Haha. Hopefully in 10-15yrs time, I can afford an old Dan amp sold online. But I doubt so.

Btw, I have never own any McIntosh gear before. How do they actually sound??
 
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dorakeg

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McIntosh probably sounds very nice but they look way too much like early 2000's PC case mods with their green and blue LEDs.
Not my style.
Haha, I would say that McIntosh looks are sort of an acquired taste. I used to hate it when I was young. Bit as I get older, I began to like their looks... Those meters and lights are gorgeous... LoL...

Unfortunately, it's out of my budget...
 
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