What is going on with the personal audio nowadays???

[winsome]

Hi all

I came back to the headphone hobby just recently. Was in this hobby around 13 years ago (I mentioned it on my other thread). Sold all my gears/rig because of its being redundant most of the time due to work commitment just dont really listen to it anymore. I used to own pretty much TOTL electrostat rigs back in the days. Been through some high-end DAC such as Electrocompaniet and Baldelius.

Now 13 years later, I'm back to this hobby at much more modest setup. What I found is that for a lot more less money I can get a much better sound vs in the past, especially with Chi-fi offerings.

However, once I entered a higher end region especially with more exotic brand, I'm shocked to see the prices of headphones, amp and DAC really shoot up through the roof. Headphones with price of 2-3-4- even 10k seems to be a norm now. Amp costing 2k and above is deemed to be somewhat in the middle of area of high-end. When I see thread at headfi, people were discussing amp that cost 15, 30k. Still fresh in my mind back in the days HD800 is pretty much the holy grail for dynamics, SR009 with stat and some other exotic brand like Abyss and Audeze is just starting their company. Those headphones only cost in the region of 1500 to 5k with SR009. For around 10-12k one can get a TOTL stat rigs with BHSE, SR009 and some brand name DAC. But now? for the same of the money, ones can only buy middle of the road high end rigs.

Another one that is even more preposterous is portable market. IEM costing 5-10k? Portable amp for 3k? And not to mention cable. WTF, this is bordering snake oil territory already

What is going on with this industry? Is it greed? Snake oil? Inflation (surely not) or a real improvement in the technology that warrant this kidney selling act? in which I really doubt its the case.

Would like comments from users here on this phenomenon. Thanks

 

[Alexander Gödde]

The headphone/IEM industry simply follows the rest of the audio industry. There is more and more audio jewellery because there are enough people willing to buy it. Not quite as much snake oil as with speaker-based systems, but still plenty.

At the same time, as you said, there is plenty of high-quality cheap gear. Entry-level IEMs are often astonishingly good, and not just relative to price. There are plenty of transparent DACs and amps at very reasonable prices, and amps have gotten a whole lot more powerful.

Regarding headphones there has been progress in closed-backs (e.g. the Dan Clark E3, Noire X, Focal Azurys), and tunings have improved overall now that knowledge about neutral-sounding target curves has spread. At the same time driver technology has not really advanced all that much - the HD800 with a bit of EQ is still a competitive headphone.

 

[jcarys]

There has always been a huge spread in the price range of audio equipment, just like in many other consumer goods. Manufacturers are in business to make a profit selling goods to customers. If there is a customer with cash in their pocket at any segment, you will find a company willing to sell a product to them.

 

[kemmler3D]

What is going on with this industry? Is it greed? Snake oil? I

I'd say both. "high end" really just means "high price"... price has maybe less to do with performance than ever.

You can get stuff like Truthear IEMs now, which for $15-100 are better than IEMs costing 10x that much 10 years ago.

Amps and dongle dacs are better than ever for $50-200, able to drive almost anything with total transparency.

I think there are worthwhile headphones in the low 4-figure range (I have some LCD XCs and really like them). But I think the price / performance ratio doesn't just hit diminishing returns, but breaks down completely once you pass a few hundred dollars.

 

[winsome]

I'd say both. "high end" really just means "high price"... price has maybe less to do with performance than ever.

Well said. IMHO, the difference in performance starts diminish at lower price bracket compared to in the past. I think a headphone or IEM between 300-500 is the point one will see a diminishing return. And 2k and above is really there is very little or close to nil change of SQ. Different sound signature ,yes, but doesnt mean technically its a better headphone

 

[winsome]

There has always been a huge spread in the price range of audio equipment, just like in many other consumer goods. Manufacturers are in business to make a profit selling goods to customers. If there is a customer with cash in their pocket at any segment, you will find a company willing to sell a product to them.

Yes and no. We see quite a few of those high end boutique brand went under water for the past 10 years. And I still believe personal audio market is smaller (no idea by how much, perhaps significantly smaller) vs home audio. Even though the margin is extremely good but its a saturated market too. People in general still can accept a home audio that cost 5 digits, but tell someone you just have a headphone that cost 2k, they will ask you what kind of headphone cost 2k. I know I had this question all the time

 

[kemmler3D]

I still believe personal audio market is smaller (no idea by how much, perhaps significantly smaller) vs home audio.

It depends on how you define the categories, but personal audio has an extremely high penetration rate, definitely more than 2-channel speaker set-ups. IIRC >80% of US households owned headphones last time I checked, a few years ago.

Anecdotally I think younger audiophiles are also now more into IEMs and headphones... Living space and money are both a bit scarcer for young folks these days so it makes sense.

 

[pablolie]

It depends on how you define the categories, but personal audio has an extremely high penetration rate

Accidentally so, since everybody gets decentish IEMs with their smartphones these days ... and let's admit they are not trash (like they used to) anymore. But yes, personal audio is everywhere... I just wish people wouldnt use their built-in smartphone speakers in public places. Ever.

 

[DVDdoug]

With headphones there is almost no correlation between sound quality and price. You can sort the reviews here by price and "recommended" and you'll see what I mean.

And it's not rocket science, nor is it expensive, to make a headphone amp that's better than human hearing. Depending on your headphones, the output from your computer or phone may be fully-capable of driving your headphones.

Most DACs are better than human hearing, again including the DAC built-into your computer or phone.

Headphone sound quality is mostly frequency response, but it turns-out that (unlike speakers in a room) flat frequency response doesn't "sound right" with headphones. The Harman Headphone Curve approximates what good speakers in a good room sound like.

Personal preference also plays a role so it helps to know what you like relative to the Harman Target.

Also see Understanding Headphone Measurements (video).

All of the reviews here show the frequency response relative to the Harman Target. (The HD800S is a bit weak in the bass range.)

HD800 is pretty much the holy grail for dynamics,

Technically, dynamics come from the recording. I like the term "dynamic contrast" which is the contrast between the loud and quiet parts).

The equipment (and storage-transmission format) has dynamic range limitations defined-limited by noise on the quiet-end and by how loud you can go without distortion. If you run out of dynamic range you hear nose or distortion rather than a loss of "dynamics".

Usually headphones go plenty-loud (if the headphone amp goes loud enough), except sometimes they will distort if you boost the bass.

The headphone amp can potentially clip (distort) if over driven and sometimes there can be background noise. Noise from the amp will be more audible with more sensitive headphones.

 

[jcarys]

Yes and no. We see quite a few of those high end boutique brand went under water for the past 10 years. And I still believe personal audio market is smaller (no idea by how much, perhaps significantly smaller) vs home audio. Even though the margin is extremely good but its a saturated market too. People in general still can accept a home audio that cost 5 digits, but tell someone you just have a headphone that cost 2k, they will ask you what kind of headphone cost 2k. I know I had this question all the time.

The fact that any one company fails doesn't change the overall marketplace in any way - they just got out-engineered or out-marketed by their competition. And "personal audio" as you call it, I'm assuming you mean headphones and the small electronics that power them, is now much larger than home audio. Apple alone probably sells as many IEMs and headphones as every other company in the US market combined. That's why you find products at all price points in headphones and gear.

 

[winsome]

With headphones there is almost no correlation between sound quality and price. You can sort the reviews here by price and "recommended" and you'll see what I mean.

I kind of disagree, but after certain price point, the "improvements" is more like a different sound profile in which IMHO a lot of people perceive it as better

Technically, dynamics come from the recording. I like the term "dynamic contrast" which is the contrast between the loud and quiet parts).

sorry, what i meant here is driver type of the headphone. Ie. HD800 uses dynamic driver

Most DACs are better than human hearing, again including the DAC built-into your computer or phone.

I went through like 3 DAC's in the past. Ranging from $500 to around $3500. Most of those have unbearable high. But the $500 somehow tame the high. No idea why. This is the one and only time I hear clearly audible difference. Again, IMHO, after certain price point, and probably lower than headphone threshold, all DAC pretty much sounds the similar It's the brand and the build quality that makes 90 if not 95% of the perceived difference. Confirmation bias.

Apple alone probably sells as many IEMs and headphones as every other company in the US market combined. That's why you find products at all price points in headphones and gear

I consider those apple IEM as more like a consumer grade, same goes to Sony and other mainstream brand offerings. My definition of personal audio is more like those people that uses separate DAP and amp and other accompanying gadgets. And from more obscure brand or "audiophile" brand

definitely more than 2-channel speaker set-ups. IIRC >80% of US households owned headphones last time I checked, a few years ago.

This probably accounts to incl apple IEM/headphone and other mainstream brand such as bose, etc

 

[Palladium]

The cheap stuff have gotten so good that IMO it's not worth the money or time investment to go further.

 

[DWPress]

I just wish people wouldnt use their built-in smartphone speakers in public places. Ever.

Can I hear an AMEN from the congregation here?

 

[Chrispy]

What the hell is personal audio?

 

[InfiniteJester]

I kind of disagree, but after certain price point, the "improvements" is more like a different sound profile in which IMHO a lot of people perceive it as better

 

[wwenze]

Performance of normal products has improved, so the "high end" equipment can only increase their price to hopefully earn enough from the ever-decreasing number of buyers.

 

[winsome]

What the hell is personal audio?

audio to use for personal listening

 

[winsome]

View attachment 495690

i suppose OE : open ears, IE : IEM, whats AE?

Edit: found the research paper. Wont argue too much, lets agree to disagree

 

[Roland68]

Yes and no. We see quite a few of those high end boutique brand went under water for the past 10 years. And I still believe personal audio market is smaller (no idea by how much, perhaps significantly smaller) vs home audio. Even though the margin is extremely good but its a saturated market too. People in general still can accept a home audio that cost 5 digits, but tell someone you just have a headphone that cost 2k, they will ask you what kind of headphone cost 2k. I know I had this question all the time

You're mistaken about the size of the market, just like you are about its growth; take a look at the relevant statistics. Back in 2019, I also thought this market was saturated and that the devices, IEMs, and headphones wouldn't get any more expensive, and that the whole thing had peaked.

This market generates tens of billions in revenue annually, and it's still growing. Furthermore, due to the global housing shortage, more and more revenue is migrating from the traditional hi-fi market to this market.

Many sales from this market are also attributed to the traditional hi-fi market, since these devices, especially smaller amplifiers, DACs, and streamers, are increasingly being used in standard hi-fi systems.

 

[DSJR]

Well said. IMHO, the difference in performance starts diminish at lower price bracket compared to in the past. I think a headphone or IEM between 300-500 is the point one will see a diminishing return. And 2k and above is really there is very little or close to nil change of SQ. Different sound signature ,yes, but doesnt mean technically its a better headphone

I'd politely suggest that for iem types (you need a good seal for them to work at their best), £/$30 a set is where diminishing returns really cuts in - >£/$300 on conventional headphones being perhaps fancy-finish external materials and styling more than anything else other than vast profit I'd suggest (unless excessive QC and subsequent rejects is the reason?)

Headphone 'dongles' are now so good it can make one wonder if a 'proper' dac is needed at all for headphone/iem listening. The former dongles can be close to state of the art for well under fifty dollars and the latter, needing extra inputs, a case and so on, can be pretty much there (all bar a dB or three) for well under five hundred dollars.

I'd respectfully ask that you get this 'thousands for this and thousands for that' kind of outlay out of your mind, unless swanky casework and control knobs is seriously your thing. I'm saying this as an ex-industry-geek who these days, puts the MUSIC first and foremost and, being retired with naff hearing now, I DO still put good/great measurements as important however and have attempted to consolidate my knowledge and understanding over many decades of practical and subjective experience. It's still fun, but on a greatly reduced budget

So, in a big way I'm glad of the SINAD race in cheap dacs, which are now totally transparent to the music signal they recreate and potentially rather better on test than expensive well-cased and often internally complex confections of yesteryear. Competition on inexpensive iem types has been so great that thirty dollars or less can 'get you there' depending on tips used and overall comfort in different models. Easy to hear production/mixing choices and general mastering competence in the different albums I play and the iems tend to work with my hearing better too I've discovered. I also favour the 'Harman' suggestions for bass response, as for me, it mimics what I used to hear on larger decent monitor speakers years ago (my current boxes die below 80Hz or so which suits the property and neighbour)