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What is critical music listening from critical music recordings...the masters?

NorthSky

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A microphone(s) captures the instruments including the vocals and room's ambiance.
You can hear the singer's breathing and the musician's fingers blocking the holes and releasing them of a wind instrument. ...The plucking of the strings, the foot pedals of a piano, the exit door in the back hall opening for new listeners. ...Multichannel music with multiple mics.

How critical are you listening?
 

Blumlein 88

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Well depends on how you mic things. Yes, the way most miking is done in most recordings results in what you describe.

Now as to what is critical listening? Depends on who you are and what you wish to be critical of. o_O

Surely you've heard the old joke: a music lover uses his system to listen to music. An audiophile uses music to listen to his system.

So we have listening to critique a recording as in a musical review.

We have critical listening by musicians to critique or learn from other musicians.

We have audiophiles trying to critique a given system with war horse 'audiophile' recordings.

Once you start recording you are critiquing or trying to learn from how other people have miked/recorded/mixed tracks.

Then there is 'critical' listening. As in, "if not for the soothing nature and sanity I find in music I would go insane". That is rather critical. Keeping one's sanity.
 
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NorthSky

NorthSky

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"There is no higher compliment an audiophile can receive than to have a professional singer listen to her own recording on the audiophile's system and tell the audiophile: "I can see myself and my band in front of me."

I agree with Ron, very.

* Quote from another site.
 

fas42

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Bob, I listen to systems in two ways: firstly to hear defects in the playback chain, this is the critical listening mode - fine details in the recordings are not relevant, it's how accurate sounds that I know well come across, like vocals, piano, cymbals; and secondly to purely go with the music, the technical capability of the setup is now good enough to switch comfortably into that mode.

If I hear the exit door in the back hall opening for new listeners, and that sort of stuff is more interesting than the music, then there is something very wrong with the system ...
 

Blumlein 88

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"There is no higher compliment an audiophile can receive than to have a professional singer listen to her own recording on the audiophile's system and tell the audiophile: "I can see myself and my band in front of me."

I agree with Ron, very.

* Quote from another site.

I'm not trying to be disagreeable , but.... I had the same idea until I did some recording. One of the early ideas to fail was a vocalist or band can best judge a recording. Sorry but they are in no position to do so. They don't know what they really sound like from 20 ft away. If they can put aside critically listening to their own self, then they can say if their musical intent made it through.
 
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NorthSky

NorthSky

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How are you Frank? Here it was extremely hot today...I hit 40° Celsius outside on my deck under my umbrella shade! I have a fan outside @ maximum speed, the type they use on Hollywood movie sets. :)

This thread, that I started, is fascination...@ least to me. Why? Because for several reasons.
One, professional music recordists (audio music engineers), they use quality monitor speakers in a nearfield environment to monitor their master music recordings.
I'm not talking about all the 95% music crap out there, I'm talking about real music, the one that soothes the soul of a man, of a woman and of a child. ...Harmony.

Two, farfield, from the big boys @ live acoustic jazz/blues alley record/listening level.

And in both cases/rooms, the acoustics are supremely important...the room's acoustics.
Why? Because it will help to hear all the minute details of those beautiful music recordings done with love and passion and true dedication.
Again, not all that 95% crap music out there, but those great music recordings from Classical Opera, Chorals, Organs, Ballet, Chamber, Orchestral, Jazz, Blues, New Age, World, Avant-Garde, Percussion, Fusion, Motown, Soul, Folk, Exploration and Nature.

A clean state in a clean system with zero distortion and pure black background in that proper studio/room will give us the best balance between fine detail retrievals (micro and macro), and realistic live like being there or they are (the musicians) there in the room in front of us in the now moment, where there is not only no more walls and ceiling and room but also where there is no more separation between the artist musicians and the listener.
Brief the illusion is complete enough in the 2016 world we live in with all the parts playing each their role in absolute synchronicity.

Just a thought, my opinion.
I dream of a higher supreme life's experience; where there are no more frontiers, no more barriers in the vast universe of transparency and eternal ♫ bliss.
...Expanding universe along with my own horizons. ...The Mix, it's all in the Mix.

Frank, critical music listening is a natural and relaxing flow. The brain doesn't have to work, everything comes on a silver plate, like room service.
The journey to get there...it's all about that journey...the hard work we all put in our lives...the Mix.
And for each and one, it has no limit, no convention, no pandemonium, but full liberation of the spirit and ecstasy of the mind.
It's like you worked so hard to put all the system together in that room, that you can only tolerate what's musically good for you, and the critical moment comes when the artist is finally there in your own room and playing right in front of your two very own eyes and ears.
All the audio science @ that point pays off. We can finally retire for good and just enjoy the music playing while gardening in the garden with the flowers, butterflies, birds, cats, dogs, tomatoes, cucumbers, onions, potatoes, carrots, beans, cherries, berries, blueberries, strawberries, apples, pears, apricots, plums, peaches, avocados.

But, just for a moment forget about what I just said, and try to define "critical music listening" in more depth, from a different perspective. :)

And you know, when listening to chamber classical music that was recorded inside an auditorium, and you happen to hear that back door opening because you heard the external noise outside that auditorium through that open door for the time she remained open...don't sweat it too much because I've assisted to those type of concerts before with that exact type of circumstance. Nothing is perfect, but it is in that imperfect music listening experience that everything that happened during the recording can become critical to the point of hearing it all, and part of it all. Don't blame the microphones, don't blame the recordist, don't blame the musicians, blame the person who opened that exit back door of the auditorium/hall. ...And only her (it's generally women who are curious of what's going on the other side of closed doors, and who open them) because someone forgot to lock that door during a critical music recording session. I've seen this, I've been there, and it's all part of that critical music experience...not in a negative way but a realistic one. Take two? Sure, but the essence is different; the first take is usually the best one...the one in the moment...not having any other takes preceding it...like a repetitive set of notes where the artists lost the emotional 'tempo'.

Look, when Glenn Gould plays the piano, what else do we hear than just the piano playing?
Keith Jarrett, same. So, how critical are we when listening to the music we love? What else did the mics capture during the music "ceremony"? And these two guys, forget it the number of takes they take; their playing style won't change.
Hey, some of the best music I've heard in life was improvised, ...Miles Davis, John Coltrane, ...
To me, it's all part of that critical aspect of music listening...nothing is hiding...all is there for me to hear what the mics heard.
 
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NorthSky

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I'm not trying to be disagreeable , but.... I had the same idea until I did some recording. One of the early ideas to fail was a vocalist or band can best judge a recording. Sorry but they are in no position to do so. They don't know what they really sound like from 20 ft away. If they can put aside critically listening to their own self, then they can say if their musical intent made it through.

All what is said here is not the absolute; it's an open discussion...a zone of free exchanges and thoughts...on critical music listening for our own knowledge.
I'm presenting open questions with my own thoughts; not as facts, not as measurable audio science, just as an open opinion.

I agree with you that when doing recordings and listening to them afterwards, my own music recordings...most of the time my critical listening takes the back seat and I'm just listening and relaxing while reading a book or surfing the web. The magic, if there was, happens between and during.

I bet it's similar for most musicians and recordists. I listen to what musicians created and I tell them honestly what I've heard, with delicate words of encouragement where I think those words should be concentrated on, the best parts. If it suck that too I dare to say...it's my Irish blood. But I mean no harm, I'm just cruelly honest. :) ...Only regarding the content...the music...not the artist...not his persona or character. ...For that I need to frequent Freud forums and psychological forums of theories on human history and behavior of our various classes of society. Not as complex like audio forums, but different. :) Audio forums have more classes of people than forums of various psychological human classes, in my opinion.

If a guy composed few tunes using his voice, then other tunes with the voice of his girlfriend; I will tell him which voice he should put his energy on, more than the other one, if one of them is the right one.

The lyrics, the catchy beats, the pleasant sounds of the instruments, all is part of the song.
I'm not much anymore into rockandroll music like I was in my teens, but I like bands with solid togetherness, simple and composed.
...Like C.C.R. like Van Morrison like the Beatles. ...And I love Opera. ...Females and males.
 
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fas42

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Not bad, Bob - here it's all about rain, and lots of it! A superstorm they call it, but we didn't feel it as such - down the road they had nearly 7" of rain over a day and a half - lots of wind, and beach erosion, trees toppling over, a few roofs off. This was after the warmest Autumn on record, warmest May and dry, dry, dry - the ground was crying out for a reprieve ... and got it!

With regard to audio I agree "music listening is a natural and relaxing flow. The brain doesn't have to work, everything comes on a silver plate, like room service.", but I wouldn't call it critical. One can choose to focus on room effects, other noises, but one doesn't have an inclination to do so if the music is working - I have a string quartet recording where the breathing of the musicians is very distinctive, the intake of the breath as they ready themselves for the next phrase of the music is there all the way through; but I don't make a fetish of listening to this, it's just there if I choose to focus on it.
 
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NorthSky

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Yes, that's exactly what I meant; in a classical recital music recording we can hear the music pages shuffling and the generator of the concert hall kicking and the feet of the musicians moving on the soundstage wood floor (carpet would be best), and it's all part of what we like to call it; critical music listening or just enjoy the recital as if we were there live. In recording studios with dubs, echoes, compression, dynamic expander, headphones monitoring, digital electric pedals, oversampling, over-processing, digital delay effects, tremolos, sustain, ... pro-tools, ... my head is like inside a factory cocoon where the red alarm rings every thirty seconds and you have to punch a card before you enter, to go to the bathroom, during lunch hour, during breaks, and when you leave the factory each day and six days a week.

Of course there is no illusion here, it's a totally pre-fabricated house with electric drills and electric noisy nail hammers.
The electric saws are continually spinning. ...And spinning along in my head too.
Different type of music recordings, different critical music listening appreciation.
 

fas42

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Of course there is no illusion here, it's a totally pre-fabricated house with electric drills and electric noisy nail hammers.
The electric saws are continually spinning. ...And spinning along in my head too.
Different type of music recordings, different critical music listening appreciation.
Bob, I would beg to differ on the "no illusion" aspect - there is a very powerful illusion, but it's highly complex, layered with tremendous density at times. The fascinating thing is when this completely unravels, in the hearing - like the music pages shuffling and the feet of the musicians moving, some tiny element of that manipulated studio mix will clearly stand out in the whole, as a completely separate entity, and one can just "watch" that one thing happening, clearly differentiated in the whole. One can shift one's attention to each of those sound ingredients in turn, and follow what's happening, without difficulty - the skill of the producer is clearly revealed, and the creativity that went into assembling the musical picture can be fully appreciated.
 
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NorthSky

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Alright, I am following what you're saying...all part of the illusion...what's on the recording.

Frank, and anyone here, please give me your critical listening music take here:

 
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NorthSky

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NorthSky

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Abstract
Although the neural underpinnings of music cognition have been widely studied in the last 5 years, relatively little is known about the neuroscience underlying emotional reactions that music induces in listeners. Many people spend a significant amount of time listening to music, and its emotional power is assumed but not well understood. Here, we use functional and effective connectivity analyses to show for the first time that listening to music strongly modulates activity in a network of mesolimbic structures involved in reward processing including the nucleus accumbens (NAc) and the ventral tegmental area (VTA), as well as the hypothalamus and insula, which are thought to be involved in regulating autonomic and physiological responses to rewarding and emotional stimuli. Responses in the NAc and the VTA were strongly correlated pointing to an association between dopamine release and NAc response to music. Responses in the NAc and the hypothalamus were also strongly correlated across subjects, suggesting a mechanism by which listening to pleasant music evokes physiological reactions. Effective connectivity confirmed these findings, and showed significant VTA-mediated interaction of the NAc with the hypothalamus, insula, and orbitofrontal cortex. The enhanced functional and effective connectivity between brain regions mediating reward, autonomic, and cognitive processing provides insight into understanding why listening to music is one of the most rewarding and pleasurable human experiences.


http://blog.shure.com/critical-listening-how-to-train-your-ears/

https://theproaudiofiles.com/youll-never-listen-to-music-the-same-way-again/
http://www.music-production-guide.com/critical-listening.html

http://wiltonelder.com/what-everybody-ought-to-know-about-active-music-listening

 
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fas42

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Alright, I am following what you're saying...all part of the illusion...what's on the recording.

Frank, and anyone here, please give me your critical listening music take here:
Bob, as pointed out in the comments on YouTube itself this is a fake ... :D
 

fas42

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And I don't think I have to "learn" to enjoy listening to music :p ... it's either good, or it ain't ... if I don't enjoy, then there's something wrong with the system; makes it all very simple, really ... :cool:
 
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NorthSky

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So you did watch that youtube music video Frank. Yep, it's an 'illusion' indeed. :D

How can you enjoy listening to music with the kind of music taste you have Frank? Look @ the music videos you posted here; not one* contains any decent tempo and vocals, none, zero...as if you were orbiting around a different planet from another galaxy back in time to another dimension. :D
It's all good Monsieur Franky, I got perfectly well your very good Mix with the audiophile community @ large, and your gentle touch and exceptionally acute sense of philosophical humor in our beautiful audio hobby. Even distorted sound can give us pleasant goosebumps/frissons emotionnel.

Today I have been listening to some real good tunes...mostly Blues. ...And couple jazzy ones.

You gotta give credits and respect where they belong, EE included, artist musicians and songwriters/singers/actors/actresses/comedians...all artists of the entertainment world. ...In sounds, lights and pictures. Say it with your own touch, your own notes...in music, in form, in artistry.

* That's not exactly true, I was teasing a little. :)
 
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NorthSky

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Good music video example Blum. Great pianist, extremely expressionist gesturally/visually, and a 'hummingbird'.
But listening to the music, only the music...pure sublimity.
 

fas42

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How can you enjoy listening to music with the kind of music taste you have Frank? Look @ the music videos you posted here; not one contains any decent tempo and vocals, none, zero...as if you were orbiting around a different planet from another galaxy back in time to another dimension. :D
Awww, Bob - that's not nice !! :(, :D.

The truth is, I enjoy the texture of music, and pop songs are little masterpieces of sound production - a system in top notch form can reveal remarkable layers of creative skill in these efforts, and I take pleasure in hearing all this detail. As a contrast, true "audiophile" recordings are often quite boring, with almost no layering of sound, and the auditory landscape being very barren - they're dead in the water, so to speak. IOW, the more complex the construction of the piece the more I find interest in it ... ;).
 
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NorthSky

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I think some of the most complex music passages with multi layers of musical texture are . , . from the Classical large orchestras, and big band Jazz.
...Some opera rock music too...organ music with chorals...and some multi dubbing electronica.

Lol, but it's true that some (most) of the music videos you posted from youtube are really open to discussion when it comes to reasonable music taste. :D

As for audiophile music, it comes in all flavors and genres. But no matter the music genre it is usually well recorded with several sound attributes. Like clear vocals well positioned in space, good sax with full impact, real life size piano...not too small not too big but just right for the room, awesome drum kit with the perfect texture of each skin and cymbals, the tempo from the big foot drum with that pow wow kick, the non-strident strings of the violins, the exquisite nature of the cello, the sweetness of the clarinet, the full togetherness of all the instruments and vocals in sheer presence and faithful unison. ...Brief the verve of it all, real instrument's timbre. ...That the microphones were able to capture because of their positioning and with the magic created by the musicians from their instruments.
Would you like me to give you some examples of audiophile music recordings from analog master tape pressings on vinyl?
Or should we go higher with analog open reel tapes?
________

Time for words play. Associate one audio word to its country:

Germany as .....
Italy as .....
France as .....
Finland as .....
Argentina as .....
Cuba as .....
Ireland as .....
Brazil as .....

Example: Australia as U2
Canada as anechoic
USA as McIntosh
 
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