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What is a Trained Listener?

BinkieHuckerback

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Listening ability counts for more than hearing, and so does experience. So your hearing can deteriorate but your listening skills will compensate, if you are trained and experienced at listening. That's why you see great conductors still leading orchestras into their 70's and 80's for example. They are likely not hearing as well as they did in their youth, but they sure as heck know exactly what to listen for!

But it's a compromise for sure, at some point when you have lost certain hearing abilities you just won't be as good a listener either.

Just like every other skill, I suppose. You can lose raw ability but make it up with skill and experience, up to a point. Phil Mickelson just won the Masters at age 50. Is he as good an athlete as he was when he was 25? I doubt it. But golf isn't just about physical skills, it's a mind game as well. So is listening.
But - doesn't the actual physical ability to hear certain frequencies change as one gets older? So - I can still run when I'm 50 + but not as fast as when I was 25. But at 50 + I can't actually hear certain sounds...?!
 

RickSanchez

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drkatz.gif
 

Mynice

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But - doesn't the actual physical ability to hear certain frequencies change as one gets older? So - I can still run when I'm 50 + but not as fast as when I was 25. But at 50 + I can't actually hear certain sounds...?!

Aren't we talking about listening to music and other media? About the whole experience right?

If it's just listening to certain frequencies at certain volumes, then yes, you lose certain high frequencies starting in your early 20's.

But if that's all you consider listening, then we don't need humans to do that at all. A machine can do that pretty easily.

Listening to music and media, and the whole science of audio engineering (or the art of music reproduction if you prefer to view it that way), is more complex that just identifying a certain frequency at a certain volume because the way we experience music, and what it is exactly that we enjoy about music, is not easily quantifiable.
 

BinkieHuckerback

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Aren't we talking about listening to music and other media? About the whole experience right?

If it's just listening to certain frequencies at certain volumes, then yes, you lose certain high frequencies starting in your early 20's.

But if that's all you consider listening, then we don't need humans to do that at all. A machine can do that pretty easily.

Listening to music and media, and the whole science of audio engineering (or the art of music reproduction if you prefer to view it that way), is more complex that just identifying a certain frequency at a certain volume because the way we experience music, and what it is exactly that we enjoy about music, is not easily quantifiable.
I agree about enjoyment in music. But my point still stands, surely - no matter how 'trained' you are, if you can't physically hear certain sounds then one's training becomes redundant. Wouldn't a machine be better at distinguishing between sounds/frequencies?
 

Mynice

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I agree about enjoyment in music. But my point still stands, surely - no matter how 'trained' you are, if you can't physically hear certain sounds then one's training becomes redundant. Wouldn't a machine be better at distinguishing between sounds/frequencies?

Yes, many professional listeners like sound engineers or speaker designers will generally use equipment to measure sound to supplement what they are hearing.

But, those really high frequencies that you lose early on, are really not considered musical. In fact, most sound engineers would edit them out because they are are so piercingly high as to be uncomfortable for those that can still hear them.
 

Anmol

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Aren't we talking about listening to music and other media? About the whole experience right?

If it's just listening to certain frequencies at certain volumes, then yes, you lose certain high frequencies starting in your early 20's.

But if that's all you consider listening, then we don't need humans to do that at all. A machine can do that pretty easily.

Listening to music and media, and the whole science of audio engineering (or the art of music reproduction if you prefer to view it that way), is more complex that just identifying a certain frequency at a certain volume because the way we experience music, and what it is exactly that we enjoy about music, is not easily quantifiable.
then there are 80 something year olds absolutely bonkers and claim to hear things that dont exist like following
https://thevinylfactory.com/news/japanese-audiophiles-personal-utility-pole/
-:)
 

BrianP

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If the subject has been covered already, apologies.

What is trained user exactly? What kind of training makes you a trained listener? How do you acquire it?
I am genuinely asking because I see this figure referenced quite often but I don't know what it means, exactly.

Thank you.

How do you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice, practice, practice.

The more time you spend listening intently, both to test tones and familiar music recordings, and the more you try to correlate what you hear with objective measurements, the better you can learn to discern both non-linear distortions and departures from linear response. My former dealer/repair tech (Jim Ott of NW Audio Labs, now retired and defunct respectively) could listen to a speaker briefly and say "there's about a 3dB dip from around 800 to 2,200 Hz" or "the treble is goosed up about 1.5dB above 3kHz" or whatever, and measurements invariably (with greater precision) confirmed his observations. Likewise he was hyper-sensitive to noise and distortions, and could hear an amp just beginning to clip at 0.5% THD, or the slightest ground loop hum. All because he had spent so many years at it. I'm not at his level, but in 35 years of DIYing speakers, I'm getting a lot closer. I know within a few seconds if something doesn't sound quite right, and have a pretty good idea of the frequency range(s) of the problem before I run measurements.

Once you dial in your system for a fairly flat response at listening position, you can play with EQ and learn what bumps and dips sound like at different frequencies. This is easiest with pink noise, but eventually carries over to music.

The other thing is the quality of your natural equipment. Some people hear better than others from birth, just like some see better. Only a small percentage of the population, mostly musicians, have perfect pitch. But even they can benefit from constant practice, and others can learn.
 
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