What headphone(s) do you own ?

[Whatsthephuss]

Sen HD490 Pro with no EQ. I absolutely don't know why these headphones are recommended here with EQ. I added the recommended EQ and they play unnaturally. Seriously, Harman target is a cure for everything?

It’s my favorite headphone without EQ as well. Crazy comfortable too. I can’t find anything to dislike about it.

 

[Mr. Reeee]

Sen HD490 Pro with no EQ. I absolutely don't know why these headphones are recommended here with EQ. I added the recommended EQ and they play unnaturally. Seriously, Harman target is a cure for everything?

EQ? Nah.
I can’t even remember the last hi-fi gear I owned that even had tone controls, never mind EQ.

FLAT is where it’s AT!

 

[Somafunk]

Sen HD490 Pro with no EQ. I absolutely don't know why these headphones are recommended here with EQ. I added the recommended EQ and they play unnaturally. Seriously, Harman target is a cure for everything?

As everyone has a different HRTF/auditory canal all you can really take from a headphone measurement is to compare to another headphone measured on the same rig.

I’m perfectly happy listening to my HD490 without eq, with my minimal 3 band peq applied it’s a little bit better but totally unnecessary for me to listen, most of my listening is electronic music so that may play a part - I never really listen to music with vocals/instruments

 

[drewdawg999]

Just got another set in yesterday, just in time for Chinese New Year's Day:

Yes it's the Tangzu Wan'Er SG II Red Lion (bass edition). Newest addition to the Wan'Er line and I think they're quite groovy. They're bassy, yet with clear vocals, a delicate balance has been struck with the tuning of this single DD. The cable is decent as well, though I went with foam eartips, not any of the nice stock ones. The unboxing experience is quite nice as well, best of all my sets (though that's not that important to me). I don't know why I got another set, it's just they're so affordable, and who couldn't use a lucky red toy for the New Year? Too bad they look like cough drops, and are built about as robustly, but that's all okay as sound quality is supreme and these sound great. Don't know how they do it for so cheap, but I happen to be a very happy beneficiary of that.

Here they are compared to direct competition in the Zero 2 and Zero Red (bass+), and I'm digging them more than the Zeroes so far. They seem more fun and energetic. You can see the lift in the presence and clarity region for vocals (though it graphs very similarly to the Zero 2 until it hits the midrange). Nice for hip-hop with female vocals (Lauryn Hill) and EDM, and classic rock and classical too. The Barbra Streisand album Guilty sounded great, as well as Aretha Franklin and Aimee Mann.

 

[johny_2000]

Seriously, Harman target is a cure for everything?

In my opinion, this is not true. Some headphones sounded quite bad (worse than without EQ) with the Harman target.

 

[d00]

In my opinion, this is not true. Some headphones sounded quite bad (worse than without EQ) with the Harman target.

Exactly. That's why I don't quite understand why Amir reviews are compared to Harman in such a way that if the headphones don't match the Harman target, it says "I can’t recommend without EQ"...

 

[solderdude]

That's because the Harman target is kind of a scientifically determined 'standard' (though using a slightly different pinna) and the majority of people (60%) kind of prefer this tonality or a tonality close to it.
Our host (Amir) falls in that 60% category.
The choice of using Harman curve makes total sense for ASR.

This is only about the tonality (taste) aspect and not about any of the other aspects that may matter more or less to an owner.
Nothing as personal as a headphone.

Fit, weight, comfort, sensitivity, size, type (over/on/in-ear), connectivity, price, distortion at high listening levels etc. also matter besides tonality.

 

[d00]

That's because the Harman target is kind of a scientifically determined 'standard' (though using a slightly different pinna) and the majority of people (60%) kind of prefer this tonality or a tonality close to it.
Our host (Amir) falls in that 60% category.
The choice of using Harman curve makes total sense for ASR.

OK, I understand and thank you for the explanation.

But why is Harman a target in topic of headphones and a target in a classic home stereo is flat?

 

[solderdude]

In fact the 'target' is 'the same' when viewing it from a listener in a decent room compared to a headphone.
Both should lead to a similar tonal balance.
This, the tonal balance seen from a consumer standpoint, is the target.
This is not the same as a 'raw' headphone measurement on a test fixture with a pinna and ear canal and a microphone at a few meter distance on axis in an anechoic room.
That's what creates the difference in the plots but both are supposed to give the same audible result (tonality) to a consumer.
For speakers Amir uses the Klippel Near Field Scanner which is also considered a 'standard' and replaces a screamingly expensive anechoic chamber in many aspects.

Assuming your head/preference is the same as that of a test fixture (which it isn't exactly) and the speakers in your room behave similar as reference speakers in a 'reference room' (which they won't).

Such is the pleasure of standards versus reality and human perception.
It makes measurements comparable.

 

[Robbo99999]

EQ? Nah.
I can’t even remember the last hi-fi gear I owned that even had tone controls, never mind EQ.

FLAT is where it’s AT!

Ha, ironically you're probably a long way off "flat" when it comes to your headphones (depending on what headphones you've got) if you don't use EQ.....you're probably a long way off from something close to replicating the sound of good speakers in a good listening room. Harman Target does a pretty good job for most people in getting closer to that kind of good sound. It's the sort of thing that is quite fun to experiment with - EQ. You won't know until you've tried it, and you'd be best off starting with Oratory EQ's if your headphone model has been measured by him:

index/list_of_presets - oratory1990

r/oratory1990: Mostly covering topics like headphones, in-ear headphones, acoustics, electroacoustics, acoustic tuning, headphone design …

www.reddit.com

 

[Whatsthephuss]

The problem with the Harman target curve is that frequency relationships change when you change SPL level.

I do a lot of listening at lower SPL levels, so I find quite often “Harman bass” isn’t enough until I really get cranking.

 

[Mr. Reeee]

Ha, ironically you're probably a long way off "flat" when it comes to your headphones (depending on what headphones you've got) if you don't use EQ.....you're probably a long way off from something close to replicating the sound of good speakers in a good listening room. Harman Target does a pretty good job for most people in getting closer to that kind of good sound. It's the sort of thing that is quite fun to experiment with - EQ. You won't know until you've tried it, and you'd be best off starting with Oratory EQ's if your headphone model has been measured by him:

index/list_of_presets - oratory1990

r/oratory1990: Mostly covering topics like headphones, in-ear headphones, acoustics, electroacoustics, acoustic tuning, headphone design …

www.reddit.com

You’re probably right. But why add more coloration?

My headphones are Etymōtic ER4SR and Grado RS1x (w/ Chord Mojo 2 DAC).
Also Grado GW100x and Apple AirPods Pro, but only for phone or Zoom calls and late night movie streaming.

I know better than to ever expect headphones to sound like anything other than headphones.
They’re a totally different listening experience from loudspeakers.

It’s the same as I don’t expect my hi-fi equipment to ever sound like Carnegie Hall or the Concertgebouw.

Sure, I’ve played around with EQ a bit. It can be fun.
Although, I tend to have a set it and forget it attitude toward music listening.

 

[Robbo99999]

The problem with the Harman target curve is that frequency relationships change when you change SPL level.View attachment 512167

I do a lot of listening at lower SPL levels, so I find quite often “Harman bass” isn’t enough until I really get cranking.

You could say the same about the ideal Anechoic Flat Speakers in a good listening room, so it's not a Harman Curve problem per say.

 

[Robbo99999]

You’re probably right. But why add more coloration?

My headphones are Etymōtic ER4SR and Grado RS1x (w/ Chord Mojo 2 DAC).
Also Grado GW100x and Apple AirPods Pro, but only for phone or Zoom calls and late night movie streaming.

I know better than to ever expect headphones to sound like anything other than headphones.
They’re a totally different listening experience from loudspeakers.

It’s the same as I don’t expect my hi-fi equipment to ever sound like Carnegie Hall or the Concertgebouw.

Sure, I’ve played around with EQ a bit. It can be fun.
Although, I tend to have a set it and forget it attitude toward music listening.

The fact is that if you use headphones that have wonky frequency responses then you're already adding colouration. It's by EQ'ing them to Harman Curve that removes a lot of that colouration - which is the overall goal of ASR for all music playback equipment.

 

[Beemer1963]

Focal Clear MG & Michi remote.

 

[aukje.dirkw]

DT770 and the HD58x. 770 get's all my time though, 58x feels a bit limited in comparison.

 

[Whatsthephuss]

You could say the same about the ideal Anechoic Flat Speakers in a good listening room, so it's not a Harman Curve problem per se.

The problem is that Harman curve might have the right tonality, but only at a certain SPL level. Anechoic Flat speakers measure flat at any SPL (until power compression sets in) but that doesn’t fully describe perfect tonality either imo.

If ASR is telling people that Harman is the “correct frequency response”, is there also a “correct SPL level” that people should listen to music?

I‘ve never heard of such a thing as the “correct SPL level,” so that’s the problem with using a single curve to describe perfect tonality.

 

[solderdude]

DT770 and the HD58x. 770 get's all my time though, 58x feels a bit limited in comparison.

A DT 770 does not exist though .
There are several different DT 770.
The 32ohm, 80ohm, 250ohm and even a 600ohm the professional series and the Edition series and the early ones even differ from the current ones.

Which DT 770 do you have ?

 

[Antiaudiophile]

I'm a Sennheiser fiend... I had a pair of HD 480 classic but I lost them when I was camping... such a bad loss, so I ordered another vintage set, HD 450 ii from 1991. Not as good but I don't really mind, I just want something vintage that's easy to drive. I have another set of vintage Sennheiser's HD 520 from the 1980s, I'd never been able to properly drive them until a few weeks ago with my Fosi ZH3, DAC/HPA, it gives 2.5 w but I still need to crank the volume to max, but it's definitely loud enough for a 'loud' listening experience. These are by far my best headphones. Both of these were made in West Germany before the fall of the Soviet Union. I also have some other Sennheiser's HD 558, HD599, HD 280 pro, Urbanite XL and momentum 1 on-ear. The last two are really bad compared to the others. But nothing compares to the HD 520s with the right amplification, I was blown away by the bass, mids and treble... all in perfect balance.

 

[solderdude]

HD 520: 600Ω and 100dB/V so pretty insensitive and requires a lot of voltage (not power) to play loud.
The later ones were 300Ω b.t.w. , those have '300Ω' written below the 'made in Germany' text, the 600Ω version did not mention the impedance.
They were succeeded by the HD 520-II which had blue cups.
To reach 120dB SPL peak you will need to reach 10V (150mW).
The ZH3 in TRS can only supply 4.5V = 0.035W (35mW) but in balanced (requires getting a 4.4mm Pentaconn cable for HD600/HD650) you get 6dB extra (almost 10V).
It explains why you have to crank up the volume.

I still have the original 600Ω drivers (in cups) if someone is interested. The headband was used to fix another Sennheiser headphone in need of a headband.