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What Happened to Hi Fi?

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watchnerd

watchnerd

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It does have some improvements and differences, but $18,337 worth? No Sale...

It currently comes in 3 sizes - two inches width difference each - $10,000, $15,000, and $25000. I have wonder why the second two inches in width is so much pricier than the first two.

This is my problem with Martin Logan as it exists today. The price rungs for a teeny tiny improvement (slightly bigger panel, 2" more on the woofer, slightly lower crossover) are enough to buy a whole 2nd system.

Even though I own two ML's, I don't think I'll be buying another.
 
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watchnerd

watchnerd

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_tunnelling

Well, Quantum Tunnelling would seem to be a valid topic at some level of audio engineering, given the complex nature of our modern devices...
Point taken about Quantum Tunneling ... You have to admit home that it is a stretch to say that some fuses and power conditioner use it in their "working".. Truth to be told if we were to think about everyday phenomenon... some of them are very hard to explain and may invoke quantum tunneling or even more complicated stuffs .. The shining of the sun for one ... A vulgar Transistor works under physical phenomena that are very hard or sometime impossible to explain.

Anyone want to buy a cat in a box?

It's probably alive. Or not.

It's impossible to know.
 

Sal1950

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We had a good bit of discussion here over the reviews of the MartinLogan and B&O speakers in Stereophile's January issue.
Lost in that hubbub was a 5 page review of a tiny speaker from Trenner & Friedl - Sun. A passive 8x5x7" box with a 4.5" coaxial driver from Sea's in the middle of the front panel. (actual woofer cone measured 3.5") 7.5lbs $3,450 the pair. o_O
Bottom line, writer Ken Micallef wraps the review with,

"The Sun is the finest stand-mounted speaker I've heard: a modern classic."

Seriously, the finest stand mounted speaker you've heard? Time to either hang your professional reviews hat up or start listening to a lot more stand mounted speakers Mr Micallef!
Bull Shit like this is a perfect example of "What Happend To Hi Fi"!
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/trenner-friedl-sun-loudspeaker-page-2#IOvw36zPfU19pRDD.99
 
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watchnerd

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We had a good bit of discussion here over the reviews of the MartinLogan and B&O speakers in Stereophile's January issue.
Lost in that hubbub was a 5 page review of a tiny speaker from Trenner & Friedl - Sun. A passive 8x5x7" box with a 4.5" coaxial driver from Sea's in the middle of the front panel. (actual woofer cone measured 3.5") 7.5lbs $3,450 the pair. o_O
Bottom line, writer Ken Micallef wraps the review with,

"The Sun is the finest stand-mounted speaker I've heard: a modern classic."

Seriously, the finest stand mounted speaker you've heard? Time to either hang your professional reviews hat up or start listening to a lot more stand mounted speakers Mr Micallef!
Bull Shit like this is a perfect example of "What Happend To Hi Fi"!
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/trenner-friedl-sun-loudspeaker-page-2#IOvw36zPfU19pRDD.99

Yeah, I saw that....sad.

And not even any pretense of why a tiny box with 82dB sensitivity and 55 Hz F3 should be worth $3000.

And how are they going to reconcile it with the Recommended Components (which, being the best stand mounted speaker, etc, a modern classic, I assume it deserves a spot) list when the LS50 is already in Class A and is half the price?
 

Blumlein 88

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Yeah, I saw that....sad.

And not even any pretense of why a tiny box with 82dB sensitivity and 55 Hz F3 should be worth $3000.

And how are they going to reconcile it with the Recommended Components (which, being the best stand mounted speaker, etc, a modern classic, I assume it deserves a spot) list when the LS50 is already in Class A and is half the price?


JA had this to say in the measurements:

Although KM comments that the Suns "cleanly produced bass notes of substance when present on the recording," the measured response doesn't really support that.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/trenner-friedl-sun-loudspeaker-measurements#i6mr4jMrDGcJRkTL.99


You don't say? So what does this mean about KM's other subjectively derived comments?

I will say, in general the measurements do look pretty good, and possibly better than the LS50.
 

fas42

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Lost in that hubbub was a 5 page review of a tiny speaker from Trenner & Friedl - Sun. A passive 8x5x7" box with a 4.5" coaxial driver from Sea's in the middle of the front panel. (actual woofer cone measured 3.5") 7.5lbs $3,450 the pair. o_O
Bottom line, writer Ken Micallef wraps the review with,

"The Sun is the finest stand-mounted speaker I've heard: a modern classic."
I grok what the speaker is doing - it's using extremely rigid construction, courtesy of heavy quality materials in a small size - perfect for delivering the music. Once you try to make the box bigger, look more impressive, the sound can degenerate into a wobbly mess once some volume is asked for.

The downside is the 82dB sensitivity - it needs to be mated to a seriously good, powerful amplifier to fully deliver.
 
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watchnerd

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JA had this to say in the measurements:

Although KM comments that the Suns "cleanly produced bass notes of substance when present on the recording," the measured response doesn't really support that.
Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/trenner-friedl-sun-loudspeaker-measurements#i6mr4jMrDGcJRkTL.99


You don't say? So what does this mean about KM's other subjectively derived comments?

I will say, in general the measurements do look pretty good, and possibly better than the LS50.

Call me a reductionist, but if making the world's "finest stand mount speaker" and "a modern classic" is as simple as stuffing a 4.5" SEAS coax into a box, why has this not been discovered until now?
 

Sal1950

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Call me a reductionist, but if making the world's "finest stand mount speaker" and "a modern classic" is as simple as stuffing a 4.5" SEAS coax into a box, why has this not been discovered until now?
Amazing, researching the quoted driver Seas L12RE/XFC the first link I got was,
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/seas-prestige-l12re/xfc-h1602-5-alum/fabric-coaxial/
$163 for single units, -10% if you buy 10, who knows by a pallet load.
Must be one hell of unobtainium parts in the 2 way crossover and a 240 cu/in box to net $3500
Guys have been spec'ing 2 way crossovers like this for decades.

Although KM comments that the Suns "cleanly produced bass notes of substance when present on the recording," the measured response doesn't really support that.
Typical JA stuff, he always finds ways to excuse the reviewer when the measurements are a bit off. He also said,

"Nevertheless, I found a strong mode at 605Hz that was present on all cabinet panels, but strongest on the top (fig.2). A couple of lower-level modes are present close to 605Hz, but as Ken Micallef didn't comment on any midrange congestion that might have resulted from this behavior, it's possible that all these modes are too high in frequency and of too high a Quality factor (Q) to be maximally excited by music."

Silly frickin nonsense.
 

Blumlein 88

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Amazing, researching the quoted driver Seas L12RE/XFC the first link I got was,
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/coaxial/seas-prestige-l12re/xfc-h1602-5-alum/fabric-coaxial/
$163 for single units, -10% if you buy 10, who knows by a pallet load.
Must be one hell of unobtainium parts in the 2 way crossover and a 240 cu/in box to net $3500
Guys have been spec'ing 2 way crossovers like this for decades.


Typical JA stuff, he always finds ways to excuse the reviewer when the measurements are a bit off. He also said,

"Nevertheless, I found a strong mode at 605Hz that was present on all cabinet panels, but strongest on the top (fig.2). A couple of lower-level modes are present close to 605Hz, but as Ken Micallef didn't comment on any midrange congestion that might have resulted from this behavior, it's possible that all these modes are too high in frequency and of too high a Quality factor (Q) to be maximally excited by music."

Silly frickin nonsense.


Speaking of Madisound. I have helped build a few speakers with parts and advice from them. Spend care picking good drivers, build a sturdy box, and let madisound design your crossovers, and you'll get very nice results. Maybe not world beater results, but good solid results at quite low cost vs buying high end stuff.
 
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watchnerd

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Speaking of Madisound. I have helped build a few speakers with parts and advice from them. Spend care picking good drivers, build a sturdy box, and let madisound design your crossovers, and you'll get very nice results. Maybe not world beater results, but good solid results at quite low cost vs buying high end stuff.

The only real downside is that resale value is non-existent.
 

Blumlein 88

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The only real downside is that resale value is non-existent.

Actually on two of them money was made when later sold. Purely on looks and sound quality with no name attached beyond a friend and myself. Now we did go into heavily braced and sculptured boxes. It was something I thought proper for enclosures for years. It primarily is what Magico does. Layers locked together in thick multi-chambered enclosures. It was very much like this right here. Though we used a more complex shape for low diffraction. The speaker was also larger than this.

Magico%20Mini%202%20Bracing.jpg
 
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Actually on two of them money was made when later sold. Purely on looks and sound quality with no name attached beyond a friend and myself. Now we did go into heavily braced and sculptured boxes. It was something I thought proper for enclosures for years. It primarily is what Magico does. Layers locked together in thick multi-chambered enclosures. It was very much like this right here. Though we used a more complex shape for low diffraction. The speaker was also larger than this.

Magico%20Mini%202%20Bracing.jpg

Wow. WAAAAY beyond my woodworking skills.

I'm good with a soldering iron and arc welder, but that? Pffft...would take me years and thousands.

But I don't think that bracing is good enough.

Needs some Blu Tack inside.
 

Sal1950

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Got the Feb issue of Stereophile in the mail a few days back and just really paged thru it while spending some time on the porcelain throne a couple days. :D
They really should have renamed this issue and maybe the whole magazine "The Vinylphile"
The first 45 pages are covered by Fremer's Analog Corner, Dudley's Listening, and Reichert's Gramophone Dreams. All in review and praise of everything vinyl and it's awesome SQ. Then after a article on headphones, yearly R2D4, and a review of a couple speakers, we get to page 105.
Way back there you'll find Dudley's review of the EAR Acute Classic CD player/DAC $6,795.
In it you'll find a (very rare for Stereophile) highly negative review calling the SQ grainy and edgy with artificial texture and fatiguing trebles. JA even rips it in measurements. OUCH, someone at EAR must have po'd the powers that be.

Then to wrap up the issue on page 115 Reichert reviews the Yggdrasil DAC. A quick overview will find Herb saying the $2k Yggi sounds OK and probably is as much as you should spend on digital playback, the High End 5 box market being out of hand. (the pot calls the kettle black?). In closing he says,
" Why must digital be so tedious, pedantic, and boring? Why must digital-even at its very expensive best-sound less real, direct, and tangible than a 7" 45rpm or 10" 78rpm?"

IMHO, What a completely upside-down and backwards picture of 2017 sound reproduction this whole issue presents.
The message being given by this issue is driven by the huge financial influx the "vinyl resurgence" has brought to just about every corner of the HiFi industry but is doing a disservice to the science of improved SQ for the future, and cheating the general consumer overall.

I know we have a number of vinyl lovers here and mean them no disrespect. Everyone is entitled to their preferences.
 
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Sal1950

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OUCH, someone at EAR must have po'd the powers that be.
Just found in Manufactures Comments that EAR believes the DUT was defective. Tim de Paravicini (the designer) said the measurement numbers are off and is requesting a test of a second unit.
 

Blumlein 88

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I think you are about right. An upside down backwards view of the state of sound technologies today.
 
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