What equipment is necessary for Resistance and Conductivity measuring of IEM Cables?

[Killingbeans]

perhaps you could rack your brains speculating what factor in the chain may have caused it.

Resistance, capacitance, inductance... placebo.

Could anyone kindly expand on this one?

If a cable has a dumb enough (we're talking really dumb here) constuction, it will act as a filter, depending on what's connected in both ends (stupid values of input/output impedance makes it worse). Most likely you'll get treble roll off.

 

[Blumlein 88]

So to follow up,
First of all thank you all for sharing the knowledge... Now:

Going by this speculation, is there a predictable sound influence (frequency-wise) on that single DD (Dunu Zen Pro+Palladium cable) when dealing with very high resistance cables or is it random? Highs\lows reduced\emphasized, perhaps timing changes with phase, group delay etc?
I know that IEMs with BAs in them are highly susceptible to resistance changes but perhaps knowing it was a very high quality single DD would help speculating. Possibly not, thought it's worth asking.


Could anyone kindly expand on this one?

LCR is inductance, capacitance and resistance. Here is one IEM impedance chart. If those odd cables added a few ohms of resistance to this it would depress the midrange and treble a bit vs the low end. Without knowing the phones or other gear used no way to know. Those phone you list are said to have 16 ohm impedance so a few ohms would cause an effect perhaps. Of course the Paladium cable I see is plated over silver or copper so I doubt it makes much difference. Without the specifics we are just guessing.

 

[Fraxo]

Thank you for expanding on it @Killingbeans @Blumlein 88 we're definitely speculating here and that's exactly what I intended, I'll research anything you mention to be more critical of it when experiencing it again at his place soon.

One more thing to get out of the way - what would it take theoretically for a cable to modify the group delay \ phase delay to an audible level?
Ik it's almost never a factor in most cases, but taking it to the hypothetical extreme - is that possible, and are there clear potential causes for such a thing?
Perhaps it would help to understand what causes it in an IEM (it being the cause) and what might cause it in a cable (being the sole cause), if that even makes sense.

 

[Holmz]

Thank you for expanding on it @Killingbeans @Blumlein 88 we're definitely speculating here and that's exactly what I intended, I'll research anything you mention to be more critical of it when experiencing it again at his place soon.

One more thing to get out of the way - what would it take theoretically for a cable to modify the group delay \ phase delay to an audible level?
Ik it's almost never a factor in most cases, but taking it to the hypothetical extreme - is that possible, and are there clear potential causes for such a thing?
Perhaps it would help to understand what causes it in an IEM (it being the cause) and what might cause it in a cable (being the sole cause), if that even makes sense.

No

 

[majingotan]

Thank you for expanding on it @Killingbeans @Blumlein 88 we're definitely speculating here and that's exactly what I intended, I'll research anything you mention to be more critical of it when experiencing it again at his place soon.

One more thing to get out of the way - what would it take theoretically for a cable to modify the group delay \ phase delay to an audible level?
Ik it's almost never a factor in most cases, but taking it to the hypothetical extreme - is that possible, and are there clear potential causes for such a thing?
Perhaps it would help to understand what causes it in an IEM (it being the cause) and what might cause it in a cable (being the sole cause), if that even makes sense.

Group and phase delay is easily made by flipping the leads of the 2-pin cables on one channel (i.e. invert phase in one channel). This can cause the sound to have phase cancellation primarily in the bass region.

 

[Holmz]

Group and phase delay is easily made by flipping the leads of the 2-pin cables on one channel (i.e. invert phase in one channel). This can cause the sound to have phase cancellation primarily in the bass region.

No…
I don’t think so…

A polarity change is not group delay, and it is also not phase delay.

 

[charleski]

Highs\lows reduced\emphasized, perhaps timing changes with phase, group delay etc?
I know that IEMs with BAs in them are highly susceptible to resistance changes but perhaps knowing it was a very high quality single DD would help speculating.

This is effectively the same as increasing the output impedance of your amp. So the precise frequency shift depends on the impedance vs frequency characteristic of your iem. There’s an article on this here.

 

[MaxwellsEq]

One more thing to get out of the way - what would it take theoretically for a cable to modify the group delay \ phase delay to an audible level?
Ik it's almost never a factor in most cases, but taking it to the hypothetical extreme - is that possible, and are there clear potential causes for such a thing?
Perhaps it would help to understand what causes it in an IEM (it being the cause) and what might cause it in a cable (being the sole cause), if that even makes sense.

The cables would have to be v e r y l o n g and badly made for phase- or group-delay to be the reason you hear a difference.

A while ago, I suggested you start with Ohm's Law, which relates voltage, current and resistance. Recently you didn't know what LCR stood for, but googling LCR Circuit would have answered your question. Inductance (a characteristic mostly associated with coiled wires) and Capacitance (a characteristic most associated with conductors very close to each other but not touching) along with Resistance are the key behaviours of any circuit.

If you want to understand this, you need to study. The study will require a lot of your time and effort, and you will not learn the right stuff by hanging around HiFi threads. A good place to start is Horrowitz and Hill's "The Art of Electronics". Only by undertaking this effort will you be able to discern sense from nonsense.

 

[Holmz]

The cables would have to be v e r y l o n g and badly made for phase- or group-delay to be the reason you hear a difference.
…
... A good place to start is Horrowitz and Hill's "The Art of Electronics". Only by undertaking this effort will you be able to discern sense from nonsense.

I do not recall seeing anything in my black covered copy of Horowitz and Hill about cables being able to cause a phase delay or group delay.
Or are you thinking a thousand mile log cable?

 

[Fraxo]

I started looking up some of the recommended topics, I am not a complete stranger to electricity in general and I bookmarked many videos and sources to expand my knowledge on what you've mentioned. I figured I should mention all of my current questions on the topic and then find the time to dive into that.

I'm actually enjoying it not worried about long studies, it's just that you guys make things clearer as far as what to touch on with limited time so I get the most relevant material to answer my questions.

Also seeing knowledgeable people dissagre with each other (respectfully) is extremely beneficial when diving deep into a bew field so, also pretty great

Thanks again, can't wait to come back wiser XD

 

[MaxwellsEq]

I do not recall seeing anything in my black covered copy of Horowitz and Hill about cables being able to cause a phase delay or group delay.
Or are you thinking a thousand mile log cable?

Yes.

Or, as I said, badly made - since it is possible to build cables with lots of inductance, resistance or capacitance. If such a cable combines with the amp's output impedance and the speakers' impedance curve, it's possible for the cable to add an extra pole in the audio frequency range with the resulting phase change.

But nobody would pay for a cable like that. Or would they?

 

[majingotan]

Yes.

Or, as I said, badly made - since it is possible to build cables with lots of inductance, resistance or capacitance. If such a cable combines with the amp's output impedance and the speakers' impedance curve, it's possible for the cable to add an extra pole in the audio frequency range with the resulting phase change.

But nobody would pay for a cable like that. Or would they?

I'm currently doing a DIY cable that has 30% Gold Plated Silver bundle + 20% Gold Plated Silver-Gold Alloy bundle + 50% Pure silver bundle: Far cheaper than buying through a manufacturer. I don't really think it makes a difference in sound due to it being 4ft in length for IEM use

 

[MAB]

How did you test cables? Blind testing?

Deaf-testing perhaps???

 

[Blumlein 88]

Thank you for expanding on it @Killingbeans @Blumlein 88 we're definitely speculating here and that's exactly what I intended, I'll research anything you mention to be more critical of it when experiencing it again at his place soon.

One more thing to get out of the way - what would it take theoretically for a cable to modify the group delay \ phase delay to an audible level?
Ik it's almost never a factor in most cases, but taking it to the hypothetical extreme - is that possible, and are there clear potential causes for such a thing?
Perhaps it would help to understand what causes it in an IEM (it being the cause) and what might cause it in a cable (being the sole cause), if that even makes sense.

Pretty much as others have already posted. It is possible to make a cable that makes a difference, but unlikely. The most likely one would be a high resistance cable, and an IEM with a low impedance plus the impedance varies with frequency. It IS POSSIBLE, but the answer is get any good copper or silver cable and it becomes a non-issue. Such cables are not very expensive. Trying to use cables to alter sound is just not a good way to do it, and for the most part they aren't going to do so. Cannot quite say never because there are some odd designs out there, but almost never.

As someone else posted the most likely case with IEM's is one with rather low impedance that varies with frequency and a high output impedance headphone amp. Cable isn't likely to enter into it. I could do a more detailed example, but you do really need to learn at least a little bit about LCR and electronics in general for it to make good sense.

 

[Holmz]

The “Horowitz and Hill” book is a bit advanced for a DIY approach to learning (IMO).

 

[mansr]

The “Horowitz and Hill” book is a bit advanced for a DIY approach to learning (IMO).

Worked for me when I was a kid.