What else matters on the sound of a headphone besides the Harman curve and distortion?

[MayaTlab]

This is a thread I started for the question to discuss I am interested in. It is about the measurable characteristics which have an influence on the sound besides FR (Harman curve) and distortion,

Title of the thread :

"What else matters on the sound of a headphone besides the Harman curve and distortion?"​

You concern, in your original post :

there are people saying that if two completely different headphones follow both reasonably well the Harman curve (or can be through EQ brought to do so) and have sufficiently low distortion, they should sound the same. This would be the reducionist stance. I doubt that is true, since there are other, more subjetivist, criteria, like soundstage, imaging, transient decay and others, that should matter, although apparently it is for many of those criteria not fully understood how to measure these. But for example an electrostatic headphone has very fast transient decay and brings a feeling of naturalism that others are not capable of. And equally EQed Sennheiser HD650 and HD800s should still have a different soundstage.

The answer we've repeatedly tried to convey to you : they don't sound the same, because, for a start, they still won't have the same FR at your own eardrum. Simple.
What you call "fitting" is to a great extent directly responsible for it. And that phenomenon is, to a certain extent, measurable (it's already largely been demonstrated at lower frequencies).
Hence why it should be the number one priority for you to look into. Simple.
Once that variable is controlled (ie two headphones effectively having the same FR at your own eardrum), only then can you start considering others as the potential causes for the residual differences they may still exhibit. Simple.

Now you can continue to ignore that issue, but then you'll be chasing ghosts as you'll be facing a multitude of uncontrolled variables, and wasting your own time. Your choice.

 

[bluefuzz]

I think there are people saying that if two completely different headphones follow both reasonably well the Harman curve (or can be through EQ brought to do so) and have sufficiently low distortion, they should sound the same. This would be the reducionist stance. I doubt that is true,

In my (limited) experience I would say it is true. I have half a dozen pairs of generally well regarded mid-range headphones from the usual suspects (Beyer, Sennheiser, AKG etc.) Without EQ they sound quite obviously different and none of them particularly good. After EQ (using a combination of publicly available measurements and my own measurements with MiniDSP Ears) they sound equally good and 'same enough' to my ears that I would could happily live with any of them. Comfort is really the deciding factor.

 

[ADU]

Info on various tests (including some other sound quality tests) by Rtings...

The R&D Page

See our test articles, methodology, and the newest test benches to help you make a more informed decision and buy the best product for your needs.

www.rtings.com

It looks like they are currently revising or adding a new "virtual soundstage" test. They have another test for passive soundstage though...

Our Passive Soundstage Score And Tests: Headphones

Soundstage determines the space and environment of sound, as created by the headphones. That is, it determines the perceived location and size of the sound field itself.

www.rtings.com

 

[ADU]

There are other (potentially much better imo) metrics that can be used to assess the neutrality and accuracy of a headphone's frequency response or tonal balance than the current Harman target as well, such as the measured in-ear response of neutral loudspeakers in an average room, and/or a headphone's diffuse field response. This is a subject which is already being discussed in other topics here on headphone measurements though.

 

[Garrincha]

Title of the thread :

"What else matters on the sound of a headphone besides the Harman curve and distortion?"​

You concern, in your original post :



The answer we've repeatedly tried to convey to you : they don't sound the same, because, for a start, they still won't have the same FR at your own eardrum. Simple.
What you call "fitting" is to a great extent directly responsible for it. And that phenomenon is, to a certain extent, measurable (it's already largely been demonstrated at lower frequencies).
Hence why it should be the number one priority for you to look into. Simple.
Once that variable is controlled (ie two headphones effectively having the same FR at your own eardrum), only then can you start considering others as the potential causes for the residual differences they may still exhibit. Simple.

Now you can continue to ignore that issue, but then you'll be chasing ghosts as you'll be facing a multitude of uncontrolled variables, and wasting your own time. Your choice.

 

[ADU]

Rtings also has a scoring system for consistency, fwiw...

Frequency Response Consistency

Frequency Response Consistency describes the variations in a headphones' frequency response due to their fit on your head.

www.rtings.com

 

[DanielT]

Title of the thread :

"What else matters on the sound of a headphone besides the Harman curve and distortion?"​

You concern, in your original post :



The answer we've repeatedly tried to convey to you : they don't sound the same, because, for a start, they still won't have the same FR at your own eardrum. Simple.
What you call "fitting" is to a great extent directly responsible for it. And that phenomenon is, to a certain extent, measurable (it's already largely been demonstrated at lower frequencies).
Hence why it should be the number one priority for you to look into. Simple.
Once that variable is controlled (ie two headphones effectively having the same FR at your own eardrum), only then can you start considering others as the potential causes for the residual differences they may still exhibit. Simple.

Now you can continue to ignore that issue, but then you'll be chasing ghosts as you'll be facing a multitude of uncontrolled variables, and wasting your own time. Your choice.

Speaking of Harman curve:

Harman curve without ear canal? HD650, DT150_100P, DT770 Pro 250 Ohm, Bose QC25 measured

Is there a harman curve for over-ears without the ear canal effect to be down-loaded somewhere? I.e. if you would measure with microphones located in the concha.

audiosciencereview.com

 

[Garrincha]

In my (limited) experience I would say it is true. I have half a dozen pairs of generally well regarded mid-range headphones from the usual suspects (Beyer, Sennheiser, AKG etc.) Without EQ they sound quite obviously different and none of them particularly good. After EQ (using a combination of publicly available measurements and my own measurements with MiniDSP Ears) they sound equally good and 'same enough' to my ears that I would could happily live with any of them. Comfort is really the deciding factor.

Well, if this were true, since EQ is readily available and cheap, I would like to unterstand then the justification of expensive headphones, just from a sound perspective (disregarding fit, built quality, comfort and the like). Once again I would claim that even a perfectly Harman obeying direct driver headphone will not be able to sound like an electrostatic one and, as was mentioned in another thread, the Sennheiser HD650 will not sound like the HD800s even if both were EQed to the Harman curve.

 

[ADU]

Former Sennheiser engineer, Axel Grell, discussing some of the topics here, as well as some of the engineering that went into headphones like the HD800S...

 

[DanielT]

Former Sennheiser engineer, Axel Grell, discussing some of the topics here, as well as some of the engineering that went into headphones like the HD800S...

Thank you for tipping that video. I'll look at it.

Should be interesting and educational. Begins by addressing what I and others in this thread have pointed out:

 

[ADU]

Thank you for tipping that video. I'll look at it.

Should be interesting and educational. Begins by addressing what I and others in this thread have pointed out:

View attachment 201931

Axel's English is a little difficult to understand. But he has alot of knowledge and experience in the area of headphone design (which is probably an understatement). And also talks a fair amount about his work with Sennheiser in the 2nd half of the video.

 

[Jimbob54]

I would like to unterstand then the justification of expensive headphones, just from a sound perspective (disregarding fit, built quality, comfort and the like)

You understand you cant really strip out the fit/build/comfort etc from the price question? People are buying the whole package.

But there is an obvious reason for the high price of SOME high end headphones. Those are the ones where there are obvious R&D costs , so the HD800 back in the day, the DCA Stealth etc. Im not sure that reasoning can be applied to other flagships though, some of which seem to be blinged up versions of lower tier models.

But the ultimate justification for expensive headphones is that there is clearly a market for them.

 

[bluefuzz]

I would like to unterstand then the justification of expensive headphones,

What is the justification for price differences in any product or service? It's naïve to think you can limit that just to sound quality. The most basic difference is economies of scale. A headphone manufactured by a multinational company using components sourced from an efficient supply chain and built using modern automated manufacturing techniques is going to be able to be sold for far less than one built by hand one-at-a-time by a guy in his basement, regardless of the 'quality' of the product.

Once again I would claim that even a perfectly Harman obeying direct driver headphone will not be able to sound like an electrostatic one and, as was mentioned in another thread, the Sennheiser HD650 will not sound like the HD800s even if both were EQed to the Harman curve.

I don't have any electrostatics, but I've heard both a HD800 and HD650 and they don't sound sufficiently different (after EQ) to bother about. 'Close enough' is close enough.

 

[Garrincha]

You understand you cant really strip out the fit/build/comfort etc from the price question? People are buying the whole package.

But there is an obvious reason for the high price of SOME high end headphones. Those are the ones where there are obvious R&D costs , so the HD800 back in the day, the DCA Stealth etc. Im not sure that reasoning can be applied to other flagships though, some of which seem to be blinged up versions of lower tier models.

But the ultimate justification for expensive headphones is that there is clearly a market for them.

Well people here don't adhere to the same narrative. If the price of the Sennheiser HD 800 (currently about 1600 - 1800.-€) over the HH 650 (about 300-400.-€), so roughly 4-5 times the price, is mostly R&D, but after EQing them both to the Harman curve they sound basically the same, then where did all this research go? In fitting comfort? The HD 650 is already pretty comfortably to wear. The HD 800 is even without EQing less close to the Harman curve than the HD 650 and does not have more bass, so the argument that he is better just out of the box does not apply as well.

 

[Jimbob54]

Well people here don't adhere to the same narrative.

You know how internet forums work don't you?

I'm not convinced you want a meaningful dialogue with anyone responding to you on this thread and possibly this whole site.

 

[Garrincha]

You know how internet forums work don't you?

I'm not convinced you want a meaningful dialogue with anyone responding to you on this thread and possibly this whole site.

I do, but honestly, neither reply of any question I posted here did convince me. So what is your position, there was a lot of reasearch involved that caused the high price of the HD800, but it sounds after EQ the same as the HD650? Or they want just to collect the money from people who are wiling to pay more? Or it is the comfort. Or the fitting. Or the built quality. I don't understand it and frankly it does not sound very coherent to me.

And then some contributers call me naive (which I am not) or want me to teach extremely basic stuff. I really would like to learn, but this has to be done in a decent and knowlegeable way.

 

[Garrincha]

You understand you cant really strip out the fit/build/comfort etc from the price question? People are buying the whole package.

Well this depends very much on the type of costumer. Some really care just for technical excellence and leave built quality, design and handling aside, some only care for built quality and brand and disregard measurable qualities, there is no general rule.

 

[Jimbob54]

Well this depends very much on the type of costumer. Some really care just for technical excellence and leave built quality, design and handling aside, some only care for built quality and brand and disregard measurable qualities, there is no general rule.

It's not the customer that sets the price... No manufacturer is going to say "these are technically excellent but we built them from leftover parts and they'll last a week now give me the $2k"*. They need to promote all aspects of a HP at that level. It's a luxury product.

*though this seems to work OK for Hifiman

 

[Garrincha]

It's not the customer that sets the price... No manufacturer is going to say "these are technically excellent but we built them from leftover parts and they'll last a week now give me the $2k"*. They need to promote all aspects of a HP at that level. It's a luxury product.

*though this seems to work OK for Hifiman

Man, the consumer does not set the price, but his behaviour determines if a product with a specific price becomes an economic success or a failure. But there are so many aspects. Sennheiser probaly did not make much money or did sell very many of the Orpheus and HE1, they wanted to make a product to demonstrate what they are cabable of. But you escewed my questions concerning HD800 vs HD650.

 

[Jimbob54]

Man, the consumer does not set the price, but his behaviour determines if a product with a specific price becomes an economic success or a failure. But there are so many aspects. Sennheiser probaly did not make much money or did sell very many of the Orpheus and HE1, they wanted to make a product to demonstrate what they are cabable of. But you escewed my questions concerning HD800 vs HD650.

I'm not sure how you want me to answer. I don't set the price of headphones. The hd6// series is a totally different product than the 8// series. You seem to think people should buy headphones just for how they sound. You're still ignoring everything else.

I'd even go so far as to say some manufacturers clearly don't care how some models sound at all. Yet they will put a high price on them and people will buy them.