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What else matters on the sound of a headphone besides the Harman curve and distortion?

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Garrincha

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I'm not sure how you want me to answer. I don't set the price of headphones. The hd6// series is a totally different product than the 8// series. You seem to think people should buy headphones just for how they sound. You're still ignoring everything else.

I'd even go so far as to say some manufacturers clearly don't care how some models sound at all. Yet they will put a high price on them and people will buy them.
ok, than I will try to rephrase my question once again. For me, as I am very much interested in sound qualities of an headphone and also (since it is causally related) how it measures, FR, distortion,...., and who also knows how to apply EQ, is the extra money of the HD 800S worth it, considering that build quality, fitting and comfort of the HD650 are very satisfactory to me.
 

Jimbob54

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ok, than I will try to rephrase my question once again. For me, as I am very much interested in sound qualities of an headphone and also (since it is causally related) how it measures, FR, distortion,...., and who also knows how to apply to EQ, is the extra money of the HD 800S worth it, considering that build quality, fitting and comfort of the HD650 are very satisfactory to me.
I've owned the 600 and the 800. I would rather wear and listen to the 800 every day of the week . Is that worth an extra $1000? Probably not to me. I bought the 800 second hand. But they are better headphones. After eq.
 
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Garrincha

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I've owned the 600 and the 800. I would rather wear and listen to the 800 every day of the week . Is that worth an extra $1000? Probably not to me. I bought the 800 second hand. But they are better headphones. After eq.
Ok one last try, you say the HD 800 are better headphones after eq, but also soundwise or (only) in other aspects?
 

ADU

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A new system for rating headphone performance from Head Acoustics based on something called mean opinion scores. This assigns ratings based on three sound quality parameters: timbre, distortion, and immersion. And also gives an overall rating based on combining these parameters.

 
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ADU

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Video detailing some improvements to the Head Acoustics head and torso simulator (or HATS) that can be used for the above analysis, which are similar to some of the upgrades in the HBK 5128 HATS system.

 
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Garrincha

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A new system for rating headphone performance from Head Acoustics based on something called mean opinion scores. This assigns ratings based on three sound quality parameters: timbre, distortion, and immersion. And also gives an overall rating based on combining these parameters.

Very interesting and along the line of what I am thinking. Just taking into account frequency response and distortion is too simplistic. While a reductionist approach is still good, if you throw away too much you got rid of essential complexity. The situation remindes me of physics before 1900. People thought, even the most brilliant ones, that there is mechanics and electrodynamics and the basic theory is already done. Later relativity and quantum mechanics entered the field, showing that the picture was far from complete.

Is there any way to know, which sample headphones and IEMs were used?
 

DanielT

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Very interesting and along the line of what I am thinking. Just taking into account frequency response and distortion is too simplistic. While a reductionist approach is still good, if you throw away too much you got rid of essential complexity. The situation remindes me of physics before 1900. People thought, even the most brilliant ones, that there is mechanics and electrodynamics and the basic theory is already done. Later relativity and quantum mechanics entered the field, showing that the picture was far from complete.

Is there any way to know, which sample headphones and IEMs were used?
Which in itself is of course interesting. What can science in the future show for new results regarding sound, or rather sound reproduction? New theories, paradigm shifts, new parameters. We know nothing about that. My guess is that it might have to do with new scientific findings regarding the brain, brain research. If I were to fantasize in the form of sci-fi so connect signals directly in the brain without medium like headphones, speakers. Digital signal directly into the brain which is then convened and interpreted ... of course only free fantasies on my part now. Note this was not sarcastically written. On the contrary, fantasizing is fun to do, I think.:)

To describe experiences, with many pictorial adjectives and parables, can of course already be done today. It can be poetic. How sound is experienced, how wine tastes and so on. Nothing wrong with that, on the contrary. Can be fun to read.Especially if it is written by a person with artistic expressive abilities, then it becomes poetry.As long as one is aware that it is an individual subjective experience.:)

Edit:
Yes, I know that many people get annoyed with subjectivists within HiFi, but you have to take it for what it is and not draw too big general conclusions on what is said then. Of course, people should have the right to express their experiences.:)
 
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MayaTlab

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Very interesting and along the line of what I am thinking. Just taking into account frequency response and distortion is too simplistic. While a reductionist approach is still good, if you throw away too much you got rid of essential complexity.

The first and foremost over-simplification is to assume that the FR that's been measured on an ear simulator is the one your own sample will deliver on your head.
By doing so you've just got rid of "essential complexity", and one that's already been largely demonstrated.

Is there any way to know, which sample headphones and IEMs were used?

For the over-ears :
Screenshot 2022-06-17 at 08.59.31.png


OE1 is the Meze Elite and OE3 (ANC ON and OFF) is the Airpods Max. For these it's fairly easy to know (the kinks in the FR for the Elite and the shape of the FR in the feedback range for the APM).
OE2 : I'm going to guess that it's an Audeze planar, possibly the LCD-5 given the shape of the 1-4kHz region
OE4 I'm less certain, but I'm tempted to think that it might be the K361
OE5 also is more difficult to decipher, perhaps the DCA Stealth ?

MDAQS suggest that the Airpods Max are the best over-ears headphones among the lot and that the Meze Elite and Audeze planar (LCD-5 ?) suck ass in comparison :

Screenshot 2022-06-17 at 10.02.05.png


This is another video that provides a little more details :

Unfortunately that's still nowhere near enough what's needed to actually know anything remotely enough about the methodology that they used. I have a lot of unanswered questions about it.
As it stands, given how nebulous it currently is, it's a completely unreproducible piece of research.
For a start I'd like to know more about the systems they used during the subjective listening tests (a photo in the presentation above suggests that at least for one session HD6... were used, but were they compensated ? How ? To which target ?), how exactly the binaural samples used were recorded, how exactly each sub-categories such as "spectral flux" are measured, and the individual results for each one of them.

And the videos already contain some rather obvious logical fallacies, such as at 24:27 in ADU's first video, where the narrator says that “not everything is determined by frequency response” (which might be the case, or not) on the basis that two different headphones with a markedly different FR still received the same MDAQS scores (including in all three sub-categories, and including "timbre"). This is fallacious as same score only means that according to their predictive model they’d be equally preferred, but that also means that they might simply be equally diverging from ideal, and it still can't be excluded from that slide that this ideal could be reached by altering the FR alone.

Also, MDAQS is designed to be applied to various reproduction systems, from headphones to car audio. If each block contains several different attributes (and all blocks, BTW, include FR), it doesn’t necessarily mean that for headphones all attributes are meaningfully relevant. Ex, in the “timbre” attribute, it could very well be the case that the “spectral flux” (what does that mean ?) is correlated to the FR attribute and that, for example, equalising headphones to the same target also results in the same “spectral flux” results (while that may not be the case for loudspeakers). We'll need a lot more published data to know that.

Without additional public data, for me, as it stands MDAQS is meaningless.
 

Hal Rockwell

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The first and foremost over-simplification is to assume that the FR that's been measured on an ear simulator is the one your own sample will deliver on your head.
By doing so you've just got rid of "essential complexity", and one that's already been largely demonstrated.



For the over-ears :
View attachment 213171

OE1 is the Meze Elite and OE3 (ANC ON and OFF) is the Airpods Max. For these it's fairly easy to know (the kinks in the FR for the Elite and the shape of the FR in the feedback range for the APM).
OE2 : I'm going to guess that it's an Audeze planar, possibly the LCD-5 given the shape of the 1-4kHz region
OE4 I'm less certain, but I'm tempted to think that it might be the K361
OE5 also is more difficult to decipher, perhaps the DCA Stealth ?

MDAQS suggest that the Airpods Max are the best over-ears headphones among the lot and that the Meze Elite and Audeze planar (LCD-5 ?) suck ass in comparison :

View attachment 213172

This is another video that provides a little more details :

Unfortunately that's still nowhere near enough what's needed to actually know anything remotely enough about the methodology that they used. I have a lot of unanswered questions about it.
As it stands, given how nebulous it currently is, it's a completely unreproducible piece of research.
For a start I'd like to know more about the systems they used during the subjective listening tests (a photo in the presentation above suggests that at least for one session HD6... were used, but were they compensated ? How ? To which target ?), how exactly the binaural samples used were recorded, how exactly each sub-categories such as "spectral flux" are measured, and the individual results for each one of them.

And the videos already contain some rather obvious logical fallacies, such as at 24:27 in ADU's first video, where the narrator says that “not everything is determined by frequency response” (which might be the case, or not) on the basis that two different headphones with a markedly different FR still received the same MDAQS scores (including in all three sub-categories, and including "timbre"). This is fallacious as same score only means that according to their predictive model they’d be equally preferred, but that also means that they might simply be equally diverging from ideal, and it still can't be excluded from that slide that this ideal could be reached by altering the FR alone.

Also, MDAQS is designed to be applied to various reproduction systems, from headphones to car audio. If each block contains several different attributes (and all blocks, BTW, include FR), it doesn’t necessarily mean that for headphones all attributes are meaningfully relevant. Ex, in the “timbre” attribute, it could very well be the case that the “spectral flux” (what does that mean ?) is correlated to the FR attribute and that, for example, equalising headphones to the same target also results in the same “spectral flux” results (while that may not be the case for loudspeakers). We'll need a lot more published data to know that.

Without additional public data, for me, as it stands MDAQS is meaningless.
Sorry for reviving an old thread but I just watched the latest video on Headfi's YouTube regarding MDAQS. It sounded like BS in the first one, about a year ago, and it sounds the same today.

I like the way the Headphone Show presents its measurements. It gives a range most people's preferences fall into. I guess MDAQS is going for definitive score and if your guess regarding Airpods Max is correct than it's good for predicting "popular" sound signatures or they just picked random folk from the street for the study, unlike Harman.
 

isostasy

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Sorry for reviving an old thread but I just watched the latest video on Headfi's YouTube regarding MDAQS. It sounded like BS in the first one, about a year ago, and it sounds the same today.

I like the way the Headphone Show presents its measurements. It gives a range most people's preferences fall into. I guess MDAQS is going for definitive score and if your guess regarding Airpods Max is correct than it's good for predicting "popular" sound signatures or they just picked random folk from the street for the study, unlike Harman.
Put it on in the background as not too invested but it sounded weirdly confrontational
 
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