What else matters on the sound of a headphone besides the Harman curve and distortion?

[Garrincha]

This is aimed at bit on the philosophical direction as well on the clear objectionist view. I think there are people saying that if two completely different headphones follow both reasonably well the Harman curve (or can be through EQ brought to do so) and have sufficiently low distortion, they should sound the same. This would be the reducionist stance. I doubt that is true, since there are other, more subjetivist, criteria, like soundstage, imaging, transient decay and others, that should matter, although apparently it is for many of those criteria not fully understood how to measure these. But for example an electrostatic headphone has very fast transient decay and brings a feeling of naturalism that others are not capable of. And equally EQed Sennheiser HD650 and HD800s should still have a different soundstage.

 

[threni]

This is aimed at bit on the philosophical direction as well on clear objectionist view. I think there are people saying that if two completely different headphones follow both reasonably well the Harman curve and have sufficiently low distortion, they should sound the same. This would be the reducionist stance. I doubt that is true, since there are other, more subjetivist, criteria, like soundstage, imaging, transient decay and others, that should matter, although apparently it is for most of those not fully understood how to measure these. But for axample an electrostatic headphone has very fast transient decay and brings a feeling of naturalism that others are not capable of.

Can we define the meaning of the things we cannot measure? We can't just say "headphone A has better flarg"; we need a definition of flarg. What is soundstage? I've looked; I've asked. I'm never happy with the answer. Do we know? Something measureable/repeatable? Something to do with frequencies around 9-10kHz? So you can induce a good soundstage by EQing around there? Or does it need "angled drivers"? There's a clear £1000 difference between the HD 660S and HD 800S but once EQed is there a huge difference between the two? If soundstage is one of/the main difference, why don't Sennheiser (or some other manufacturer) experiment with the angle and come up with a similarly impressive (anecdotally - I've never heard the HD 800S) soundstage?

 

[MayaTlab]

The headphones' capacity to deliver the target it aimed at (or rather the spirit of it, which in Harman's case would be "decent loudspeakers in a decent listening room") on as many real humans as possible.

The issue of leakage and how it can for some headphones introduce significant variation across people is already fairly well established thanks to Rtings' database and Harman's own article on leakage : https://www.grasacoustics.com/files...mprovedMeasurementofLeakageEffects_Harman.pdf

Sample variation also is an issue that's occasionally been well demonstrated.

 

[eddantes]

Microphonic cabling, headset, earcups. Fit and comfort. Appearance... I mean come on... Ain't nobody gettin laid by showing their Stax.

 

[DVDdoug]

What else matters on a headphone besides the Harman curve and distortion?

I'd say that about covers the "sound quality". With electronics we could add noise but passive headphones don't generate (electronic) noise.

Additionally...

Sensitivity
Comfort, fit, and weight
Open or sealed preference
Appearance
Ruggedness/reliability (I think Koss still has a lifetime warranty)
Cost

 

[Garrincha]

Can we define the meaning of the things we cannot measure? We can't just say "headphone A has better flarg"; we need a definition of flarg. What is soundstage? I've looked; I've asked. I'm never happy with the answer. Do we know? Something measureable/repeatable? Something to do with frequencies around 9-10kHz? So you can induce a good soundstage by EQing around there? Or does it need "angled drivers"? There's a clear £1000 difference between the HD 660S and HD 800S but once EQed is there a huge difference between the two? If soundstage is one of/the main difference, why don't Sennheiser (or some other manufacturer) experiment with the angle and come up with a similarly impressive (anecdotally - I've never heard the HD 800S) soundstage?

Well, basically you are just rephrasing my questions, but I want answers! I unfortunately have never listend to the HD800S as well but I dont't doubt that is true what people say about the soundstage. This is subjective experience and if everybody agees that it exists, it should be measureable and reproducable. (It is a is a (in a light sense) similar to the question of consciousness, almost everybody agrees that it exists, but how to define it or produce it, nobody knows). Is it the angled driver? Do other companies try to replicate that etc.?

 

[Garrincha]

Microphonic cabling, headset, earcups. Fit and comfort. Appearance... I mean come on... Ain't nobody gettin laid by showing their Stax.

I should have added the term soundwise, this is what I am interested here.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

Nothing that can currently be sufficiently explained and measured.
I also doubt that many of the perceived differences would persist in controlled blind tests.

 

[DVDdoug]

Well, basically you are just rephrasing my questions, but I want answers!

There is a link to a nice video about headphone measurement here. (He makes an interesting observation that people often describe headphones with more distortion (IIRC high-frequency distortion) as being "more detailed"!)

And Audiophoolery is a short article about the 4 parameters that affect/define audio quality. That should help you from being misled by audiophile nonsense terminology. ...Some things like artifacts of lossy compression don't neatly fit into these 4 characteristics and they aren't always easily measured.

 

[DVDdoug]

I also doubt that many of the perceived differences would persist in controlled blind tests.

It's super disappointing that no reviewers (as far as I know) are doing blind listening tests. I don't expect Amir to do that... He's just one guy and we should be VERY thankful for what he does!!! And this kind of thing is best done by a panel, plus someone conducting the experiment.

That goes for speakers & microphones too, but it shouldn't be necessary for electronics where everything "easily" measured and you don't get any kind of acoustic-environment effects.

You can't really do an ABX test because you can feel a difference between A & B (and 99% of the time you would hear a difference). But A/B comparisons could be done where A is a known-constant reference (the same reference every time you review a headphone).

I'd like to know the reviewer's opinion before he knows the brand or the cost...

 

[Garrincha]

There is a link to a nice video about headphone measurement here. (He makes an interesting observation that people often describe headphones with more distortion (IIRC high-frequency distortion) as being "more detailed"!)

And Audiophoolery is a short article about the 4 parameters that affect/define audio quality. That should help you from being misled by audiophile nonsense terminology. ...Some things like artifacts of lossy compression don't neatly fit into these 4 characteristics and they aren't always easily measured.

I am not misled by audiophile nonsense, this is why I like ASR. But still, while many audiophile terms like PRaT are just nonsense and invented, there are some sujectivist ones that seem to be real, like soundstage.
It is clear to me, if anything supposedly sounds better with more distortion (like the headphones mentioned or tube amps), this is misguided and the opposite of high fidelity, which I am after.

 

[Garrincha]

Nothing that can currently be sufficiently explained and measured.
I also doubt that many of the perceived differences would persist in controlled blind tests.

So you doubt that two equally EQed headphones with supposedly different soundstage might be discernable? And that an electrostatic one and a dynamic one as well? So you are in the reducionist group, but I would claim that is possible to keep them apart.

 

[someguyontheinternet]

So you doubt that two equally EQed headphones with supposedly different soundstage might be discernable? And that an electrostatic one and a dynamic one as well? So you are in the reducionist group, but I would claim that is possible to keep them apart.

A claim without sufficient evidence is not more than an opinion.
To properly verify this claim one would have to create a test setup that can obscure factors like weight and comfort since those might influence the perception of sound. This is probably not feasible without creating headphones made specifically for this purpose.

 

[eddantes]

I should have added the term soundwise, this is what I am interested here.

A cable that rumbles or earcup suspension that creaks - those are sound issues. So is poor fit that doesn't seal well.

 

[Zensō]

I know it’s not really the question you were asking, but in my opinion comfort is first and foremost with both headphones and IEMs. I couldn’t care less how a headphone sounds if wearing it for more than 20 minutes is painful.

To more directly answer your question, frequency response and distortion are certainly the most important factors when analyzing headphones, but I don’t believe anyone is really saying two identically measuring headphones will sound exactly the same on different heads. Seal, driver angle (and perhaps a few other physical characteristics), plus the differences in each individual’s physiology, will undoubtedly have an effect on how a headphone sounds to each person.

 

[Garrincha]

A cable that rumbles or earcup suspension that creaks - those are sound issues. So is poor fit that doesn't seal well.

It is, but a trivial one, I am interested in what is measurable in headphones and if this tells us the complete picture about the sound.

 

[Garrincha]

I know it’s not really the question you were asking, but in my opinion comfort is first and foremost with both headphones and IEMs. I couldn’t care less how a headphone sounds if wearing it for more than 20 minutes is painful.

To more directly answer your question, frequency response and distortion are certainly the most important factors when analyzing headphones, but I don’t believe anyone is really saying two identically measuring headphones will sound exactly the same on different heads. Seal, driver angle (and perhaps a few other physical characteristics), plus the differences in each individual’s physiology, will undoubtedly have an effect on how a headphone sounds to each person.

Ok, then take for the sake of argument the same person. Is it so difficult to see what I am aiming at? The question now is, if the same person uses different phones with identical fitting, FR and distoring, are there more things that determine the sound and if what, what are these and what is the material origin of these?

 

[mrbungle]

Ok, then take for the sake of argument the same person. Is it so difficult to see what I am aiming at? The question now is, if the same person uses different phones with identical fitting, FR and distoring, are there more things that determine the sound and if what, what are these and what is the material origin of these?

Did you watch the video @DVDdoug was linking? The answer is yes, but there are no good ways of measuring them yet.

 

[Zensō]

Ok, then take for the sake of argument the same person. Is it so difficult to see what I am aiming at? The question now is, if the same person uses different phones with identical fitting, FR and distoring, are there more things that determine the sound and if what, what are these and what is the material origin of these?

No two headphones from different brands are ever going to be identical, so you can’t ever assume identical fit. There are a host of physical attributes though, that effect what we hear, including seal, driver angle, driver distance from the ear canal, the size of the resonating chamber, and so forth.

 

[Garrincha]

No two headphones from different brands are ever going to be identical, so you can’t ever assume identical fit. There are a host of physical attributes though, that effect what we hear, including seal, driver angle, driver distance from the ear canal, the size of the resonating chamber, and so forth.

There are people that either don't want to understand the question or are not able to do so.