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What does Trinnov do that others don’t?

DonH56

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Perhaps the Apple and alternative programs should be taken to a new thread?
 

hollis

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Usually we cannot have nice things but Audio MIDI Setup is nice, and in the new macOS it has atmos. I wonder if it does higher channel counts (i.e., for an audio interface), but I don't have anything with more channels. Still given the size of this niche audience, it seems like a gift.
Ok now that is amazing! We really need to break this computer based immersive audio into its own thread. I am in the process of building a windows based setup. Right now I am using the Okto DAC8 that was so hard to get for years.

Trying to decide between 6.2 (with two subs) or 4.0.4 (with 4x bed layer and 4x auro heights). Might have to try both. Right now my experiments with powered monitors in a 12x10' room are showing that T5V are amazing and phantom center is totally fine. I can get to 16ch if I use Lynx D/A gear.

Let me know if you ever want to collaborate on anything. My playback is JRiver based, since I plan to get Audiolens and go full convolution room eq on every ch.
 

hollis

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The post you originally quoted refers to TV.app (and Music.app originally ... @mkt was responding to my question) on macOS, not the AppleTV hardware device. CoreAudio on macOS will decode Atmos content from those apps up to 7.1.4 and send it to multi-channel DAC (or a stack of stereo DACs). The feature was added fairly recently. It may do so for Atmos content via Safari, but I haven't checked whether that's a thing.
Thats amazing, windows really needs to up their game.

With a 16ch sound card, I can only send to max 8 outputs.
1649293665366.png


If I use loopback into JRiver Media Center. I can take that source 7.1 and upmix to Auro3d via one of several VSTs, but each cost about $500. I have not tested how JRiver outputs height channels yet.

Let me know if you ever want to collaborate. My end goal is convolution based room eq on every ch, generated via Audiolens. Trinnov will have better speaker locating and remapping tech, but computer based room eq is the endgame of end game I think (and Mitch Barnett too)
 

darrellh44

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Trinnov's Optimizer corrects for the magnitude AND phase response for each speaker. Having been exposed to Fourier and LaPlace transforms as a EE student many years ago, you learn that correct phase response is just as important as magnitude response when it comes to faithfully reproducing transient signals. See this Trinnov article on the subject.
 
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Golfx

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I'm surprised no one has mention that Trinnov's Optimizer corrects for magnitude AND phase for each speaker. Having been exposed to Fourier and LaPlace transforms as an EE student many years ago, you learn that correct phase response is just as important as magnitude response when it comes to faithfully reproducing transient signals. See this Trinnov article on the subject.
Most of us with a trinnov will never stop learning about what it does that others do not.
 

DonH56

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I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Trinnov's Optimizer corrects for the magnitude AND phase response for each speaker. Having been exposed to Fourier and LaPlace transforms as a EE student many years ago, you learn that correct phase response is just as important as magnitude response when it comes to faithfully reproducing transient signals. See this Trinnov article on the subject.
Guess it was self-evident so we didn't think to state it explicitly...

But other room correction programs do that as well (Dirac Live, MCACC, etc.)
 

ascl

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I'm not sure if it works for third-party apps or web apps as I haven't checked since the feature (with support for configuring Atmos output via Audio Midi Setup) was added. I expect TV channels subscribed via TV.app would work.

For others, Apple would need to make available the API and developers would have to implement for their apps. As mentioned, I'm not sure about Safari (which is how I view Netflix and Prime normally). Any limitation is basically a function of Dolby licensing, CoreAudio is otherwise system-wide

Edit: I've only acquired a multi-channel DAC recently, and haven't set up amp and speakers beyond stereo yet. I run Sonarworks (which is system-wide) on macOS but that's stereo-only, for multi-channel I'd have to run Dirac standalone on the OS (if it agrees with Atmos, not sure). There are more tweaky options probably.
Apple's CoreAudio API is available to all apps, and does support all dolby formats: https://developer.dolby.com/platforms/apple/macos/overview/
This includes dolby vision, and is available for all developers, seemingly without license restrictions, although there are various hardware and OS version limits (you need new stuff).

If an app doesn't support it, it seems to be due to that app developer not implementing rather than something missing from Apple.
 

darrellh44

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Guess it was self-evident so we didn't think to state it explicitly...

But other room correction programs do that as well (Dirac Live, MCACC, etc.)
I guess it's a matter of degree - it takes a lot of real-time processing power to do it reasonably well for 16 channels. I thought Trinnov and Dirac were the only ones doing true phase correction and not just time alignment. I've heard that some processors do phase correction with bass management, but it's limited to frequencies around the LFE crossover. I hadn't heard that MCACC was doing phase correction now - is this fairly recent?
 

Larryfl1

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Hi, i know this is a Trinnov thread but wanted some perspective
i am currently upgrading my processor..very different prices…considering trinnov(JBL version) , JBL 58, Anthem 90

I am using it in a open family room currently but expect to be in a house in over a year that will have a dedicated theater room..thinking. 9.4.6 or something similar… probably synthesis speakers..thinking that as of now…

whats the thoughts /advantages of going Trinnov route now even though it will simply be in a family room(non optimal) … my speakers are in crappy locations Currently due to room configuration at this time….
 

Golfx

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Hi, i know this is a Trinnov thread but wanted some perspective
i am currently upgrading my processor..very different prices…considering trinnov(JBL version) , JBL 58, Anthem 90

I am using it in a open family room currently but expect to be in a house in over a year that will have a dedicated theater room..thinking. 9.4.6 or something similar… probably synthesis speakers..thinking that as of now…

whats the thoughts /advantages of going Trinnov route now even though it will simply be in a family room(non optimal) … my speakers are in crappy locations Currently due to room configuration at this time….
How could it hurt to get a head start on learning and using the Trinnov now? No company offers a better customer support experience.

I follow the anthem AVMM70/90 owners thread as I was thinking about buying the 90 a LONG time ago when it was first advertized. Their customer support is lacking and their user manual documentation is very minimal. Most of their setup problems could be solved by better user manuals for first time users.
 

Larryfl1

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Are the dac’s in the unit comparable to the other equipmenet out there as the SN seems to keep getting higher…. will this be upgradable in the future?
My understanding is dsp is irrelevant as there is no dsp, its all software /upgradable on the Trinnov

also another question..if we get one its in our tv /family room and on cable most of the time..ughhh.. with that said i read some comments that there is a delay every time source changes…if we change channels does the audio drop out and resynch? Each time? In that use case it would be very annoying if it does that when changing stations..
 

Golfx

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Are the dac’s in the unit comparable to the other equipmenet out there as the SN seems to keep getting higher…. will this be upgradable in the future?
My understanding is dsp is irrelevant as there is no dsp, its all software /upgradable on the Trinnov

also another question..if we get one its in our tv /family room and on cable most of the time..ughhh.. with that said i read some comments that there is a delay every time source changes…if we change channels does the audio drop out and resynch? Each time? In that use case it would be very annoying if it does that when changing stations..
It is seductive to simplify AV comparisons to SINAD numbers. Amir sometimes comments that it indicates “good engineering hygiene” on the part of the manufacturer. However, while that mathematical number (100 for trinnov) helps narrow our choices as to what to consider purchasing it only tells a “small” part of what to consider.

If we compare trinnov (100 SINAD) with say the Denon AVR 8500 (103 SINAD)—Denon wins. But if you want to play hi-res music AND use room correction on the Denon, the Denon has to downsample the music to 48KHZ because it lacks the processing power to do both play hi-res music and use its room correction software. Trinnov does not downsample. Then the Trinnov has an exponentially better capability to customize speaker setup and room correction—seemingly unending options for crossover filter types and settings for your speakers. Multiple configurations for speaker setups and over 13 different options for EACH source.

Trinnov’s circuits momentarily shutoff the signal to your speakers when changing sampling rates (very desirable safety feature for expensive speakers) and like most HDMI AVPs it does have a delay when changing video streaming sources. I do not have cable but I suspect there will be a delay. I also had a delay with my Denon AVR A-110 as well. I didn’t find either annoying though.
 

DonH56

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Hi, i know this is a Trinnov thread but wanted some perspective
i am currently upgrading my processor..very different prices…considering trinnov(JBL version) , JBL 58, Anthem 90

I am using it in a open family room currently but expect to be in a house in over a year that will have a dedicated theater room..thinking. 9.4.6 or something similar… probably synthesis speakers..thinking that as of now…

whats the thoughts /advantages of going Trinnov route now even though it will simply be in a family room(non optimal) … my speakers are in crappy locations Currently due to room configuration at this time….
Arguably the Trinnov will handle non-optimal placement better but in your situation I would go for the Trinnov simply to get a leg up on its features and control. The JBL SDP-75 includes Harman models for many of their speakers. The advantages in a family room are the same as everywhere else, just read through all the previous posts.

The Trinnov remote is a bit primitive, or more politely "bare-bones". I use a Harmony universal remote and have for many years to switch everything one. HDMI synch is always a PITA (with virtually every AVR/AVP I have owned be it Denon, Emotiva, Pioneer, and now Trinnov) so it helps to be able to set up the turn-on and delay sequencing with universal remote.

Are the dac’s in the unit comparable to the other equipmenet out there as the SN seems to keep getting higher…. will this be upgradable in the future?
My understanding is dsp is irrelevant as there is no dsp, its all software /upgradable on the Trinnov
Comparable, I think so. Upgradeable, probably not IMO, but who knows. Trinnov's audio performance is IMO "acceptable" and comparable to most all the rest. The difference is in the room correction program and incredible control and flexibility as well as better support for all the various formats and such. 100 dB dynamic range is plenty for me and far more than any source material I have.

also another question..if we get one its in our tv /family room and on cable most of the time..ughhh.. with that said i read some comments that there is a delay every time source changes…if we change channels does the audio drop out and resynch? Each time? In that use case it would be very annoying if it does that when changing stations..
I have read that before but not personally noticed that with Comcast/Xfinity at my place. Sometimes there is a short glitch on some channels but that also happens using a Comcast box with our older TV (no AVR) upstairs. Just switching channels I don't recall losing audio for any longer than it takes to perform the actual channel change (which is due to the cable box and not the AVP). I wonder if there is an issue with some cable boxes (a perennial issue).

FWIWFM/HTH - Don
 

Bulldogger

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Are the dac’s in the unit comparable to the other equipmenet out there as the SN seems to keep getting higher…. will this be upgradable in the future?
My understanding is dsp is irrelevant as there is no dsp, its all software /upgradable on the Trinnov

also another question..if we get one its in our tv /family room and on cable most of the time..ughhh.. with that said i read some comments that there is a delay every time source changes…if we change channels does the audio drop out and resynch? Each time? In that use case it would be very annoying if it does that when changing stations..
You can add external dacs to the Trinnov. I know of a few guys who weren't happy with the "all powerful wizard" and added external dacs. Now those guys are happy. The Trinnov with onboard dacs couldn't be made to sound as good, even with all that processing, as their old processors ; ).

Last summer I was in Houston Texas at https://modia.com/ . Trinnov was in one room and Denon was in the other. Granted two completely different rooms with different speakers. But I figured the wizard is so powerful, that the wizard should always win? Not so. The Denon room with Classe amps in my subjective opinion was much better sounding with one exception. The sub in the Denon room was vastly inferior to those in the Trinnov ALT 16 with Trinnov amp room. I was TRULY surprised. The sales guy played the exact Star Wars scene in both rooms. Denon killed.
 

phoenixdogfan

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Thats amazing, windows really needs to up their game.

With a 16ch sound card, I can only send to max 8 outputs.
View attachment 198166

If I use loopback into JRiver Media Center. I can take that source 7.1 and upmix to Auro3d via one of several VSTs, but each cost about $500. I have not tested how JRiver outputs height channels yet.

Let me know if you ever want to collaborate. My end goal is convolution based room eq on every ch, generated via Audiolens. Trinnov will have better speaker locating and remapping tech, but computer based room eq is the endgame of end game I think (and Mitch Barnett too)
Very into this as well. I currently use JRiver for a 5.1 system for streaming apps like Netflix, and use Dirac Live 3 as DSP together with an Octo 8 for DAC/Preamp. Thinking about upgrading to a Mac Mini later this year. If there is a way to output a 7.1.4 LPCM ATMOS stream to my USB DACS (I have an Octo 8 and and Motu M4), I'd love to know about it. Also thinking about upgrading to Audiolense XO later this year. I have also identified some super cheap surrounds which I think could be repurposed to height channels, along with a cheap, high quality amp to drive them (Aiyima A07).

I currently get Atmos over headphone via a 24 Channel studio based PRIR of D&D 8C's over my Smyth A16 Realizer. My sources for Atmos content are my LG C1 via eARC, and my NVidia shield. The A16 Realizer is also capable of outputting up to 16 Channels of ATMOS/DTS-X/Auro 3D via its analog line outs, but it has no DSP or EQ for those channels, at least not yet, they constantly add things to the software--so it could also be a path to ATMOS. Smyth is also contemplating adding multichannel Dirac Live to the unit as well. But, for right now, it would be a challenge, I think, to use the unit with no DSP except for some capability to adjust output gain on each individual channel.

Ultimately, my goal is to use my existing PC based system and find a way (either via a PC or my A16 Realizer) to expand it into a 5.1.4 Atmos system for relatively little money--around $2k-- by using cheap repurposed used surrounds as height channels together with the cheap Aiyima amps.

I think this will be an interesting project, and if anyone has any ideas on how to either use a Pc or Mac, or an A16 Realizer as an Atmos renderer, I would welcome any words of wisdom.
 
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Bulldogger

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Very into this as well. I currently use JRiver for a 5.1 system for streaming apps like Netflix, and use Dirac Live 3 as DSP together with an Octo 8 for DAC/Preamp. Thinking about upgrading to a Mac Mini later this year. If there is a way to output a 7.1.4 LPCM ATMOS stream to my USB DACS (I have an Octo 8 and and Motu M4), I'd love to know about it. Also thinking about upgrading to Audiolense XO later this year. I have also identified some super cheap surrounds which I think could be repurposed to height channels, along with a cheap, high quality amp to drive them (Aiyima A07).

I currently get Atmos over headphone via a 24 Channel studio based PRIR of D&D 8C's over my Smyth A16 Realizer. My sources for Atmos content are my LG C1 via eARC, and my NVidia shield. The A16 Realizer is also capable of outputting up to 16 Channels of ATMOS/DTS-X/Auro 3D via its analog line outs, but it has no DSP or EQ for those channels, at least not yet, they constantly add things to the software--so it could also be a path to ATMOS. Smyth is also contemplating adding multichannel Dirac Live to the unit as well. But, for right now, it would be a challenge, I think, to use the unit with no DSP except for some capability to adjust output gain on each individual channel.

Ultimately, my goal is to use my existing PC based system and find a way (either via a PC or my A16 Realizer) to expand it into a 5.1.4 Atmos system for relatively little money--around $2k-- by using cheap repurposed used surrounds as height channels together with the cheap Aiyima amps.

I think this will be an interesting project, and if anyone has any ideas on how to either use a Pc or Mac, or an A16 Realizer as an Atmos renderer, I would welcome any words of wisdom.
 

Sancus

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That's very interesting but the content it works on is very limited, it would be a real pain to use that player to play audio associated with video content or content from streaming services.

Still it is promising that Dolby has released any way to play back their consumer content in software.
 

stevenswall

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The beauty of claims :) Trinnov exists and the Dirac version that blows Trinnov away does not. I hope it comes to fruition - but we’ll see.
I hope so too. Dirac Live Bass Control (for multiple subwoofers) doesn't seem to be getting any more popular and it sounds like we'll be waiting until 2023 before we see some broken implementations of spatial room correction appear around the multi-ten thousand dollar mark.
 
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