What does toe-in mean?

[-Matt-]

does the "back wall" mean:
a) the wall behind the listener
b) the wall behind the speaker

Ha Ha!

I mean behind the speakers.

 

[ryanosaur]

If the axis of the baffle is perpendicular to the front wall (you know, the wall behind the Main Speakers at the "front" of the room (Semantics is a b!tch. *shrugs )), and that is labelled as 0º, angling them in is Toe-In. Angling them out is, well, toe-out.

Commonly I see the recommendation to listen to a speaker at about 15º off axis with the "on-axis beam" passing the listener and crossing somewhere behind the MLP. Depending on placement along the wall, geometry will tell you how to get to that angle. Likewise, if you have Speakers with Horns or tighter dispersion, Time-Intensity Trading requires an extreme toe-in where the "on-axis beam" will cross well in front of the MLP.

 

[-Matt-]

Ok, I've added an option:

Relative to speaker axes parallel

Some may wish to change from relative to back wall to this.

 

[ryanosaur]

The change in poll question is better. Descriptions are still wonky.

 

[-Matt-]

Yeah, it is probably more often useful to talk about whether the beams should cross infront or behind the listener's head. Or be aimed directly at the MLP.

 

[JustJones]

Watching porn together before you actually try a menards à trois

Or watching How to drill a pilot hole at Lowes.

 

[Thomas savage]

Or watching How to drill a pilot hole at Lowes.

OK thats a jump , interesting from a criminology pov .

 

[Bleib]

This is what I've pretty much always done and it means that the beams would cross slightly infront of the listener (cross-firing).

If we use relative to MLP then the term toe out is occasionally useful, otherwise, not so much.


Ahh, good point, my question has an assumption that speakers are parallel to the back wall and in some cases they may be across a corner for example.

When I listen to Erin's audio corner reviews I listen a bit carefully, sometimes he says toe-in will result into too much treble. It's really how it's designed, it's too bad not everything can be scientifically tested so buyers could actually know.

Here's another review with measurements, saying it's not really necessary to angle them

 

[wunderkind]

While I still apply minor toe-in for my AV setup. I'm wondering if it is a relic of stereo era. Especially in a multichannel setup.

 

[ryanosaur]

Yeah, it is probably more often useful to talk about whether the beams should cross infront or behind the listener's head. Or be aimed directly at the MLP.

Perhaps because my Rig is designed for multi-channel playback, I subscribe to HT terms. Front Speakers are on the Front wall.

Corner placed systems are a more difficult one to so easily describe.

All that said, both examples I used are toe-in; it's just to what extent you angle the Speakers inward toward each other from the Axes being parallel to each other and perpendicular to a real or imaging wall behind the L/R Front or Main Speakers.

 

[TK750]

OK thats a jump , interesting from a criminology pov .

I'm guessing using 'menards a trois' was not deliberate and instead you meant to say 'ménage à trois'

I believe Menards is a large hardware store in the US so not much of a jump from @JustJones lol

 

[ryanosaur]

While I still apply minor toe-in for my AV setup. I'm wondering if it is a relic of stereo era. Especially in a multichannel setup.

I would argue that it is about where the best sound reaches the MLP. On axis listening can be too energetic, whereas that oft-recommended 15º off axis listening angle may result in flatter/smoother FR.
My system is multi purpose with Music and Multichannel Music as the primary driver behind it. Yes I have a TV and game on it, too. But fidelity and critical listening are still he benchmark I built it around.
Good audio quality is just that. You still want the best possible sound from each Speaker reaching the MLP.

 

[Chagall]

#1 makes more sense to me relative to on-axis or the listening position.

 

[Thomas savage]

When I listen to Erin's audio corner reviews I listen a bit carefully, sometimes he says toe-in will result into too much treble. It's really how it's designed, it's too bad not everything can be scientifically tested so buyers could actually know.

Here's another review with measurements, saying it's not really necessary to angle them
View attachment 339402

I think that's what ASR is about , not perfection but standards . You can't and shouldn't expect the consumer to be a audio professional or indeed even competent, we need protection, then after that the consumer can deep dive at their convenience .

That's the right way round, at the moment it's just a free for all piss take although you all are making a good difference so keep going .

 

[ryanosaur]

I'm guessing using 'menards a trois' was not deliberate and instead you meant to say 'ménage à trois'

View attachment 339404

I believe Menards is a large hardware store in the US so not much of a jump from @JustJones lol

LMFAO!

 

[DonH56]

I have always used the term for the direction of the speakers relative to the listener.

 

[Thomas savage]

I'm guessing using 'menards a trois' was not deliberate and instead you meant to say 'ménage à trois'

View attachment 339404

I believe Menards is a large hardware store in the US so not much of a jump from @JustJones lol

Always worth a guess ..., I thought a menard was a duck ..

I'm famous for those that know me here for not being able to spell for toffea .., I guess iv been away too long .

 

[DonH56]

Now I'm getting the urge to visit Menard's...

 

[-Matt-]

While I still apply minor toe-in for my AV setup. I'm wondering if it is a relic of stereo era. Especially in a multichannel setup.

Trinnov recommend cross firing (which I think some would call extreme toe in) in their speaker layout guide. (In the case of a treated room).

This is because it minimises unnecessary sound energy introduced to the room and gives an even frequency response across the largest number of seats. It also helps the centre image position if you are not at mlp.

 

[ryanosaur]

#1 makes more sense to me relative to on-axis or the listening position.

View attachment 339405

I would counter that most people don't automatically aim Speakers at the MLP rather they place them along a wall with the beam-axis perpendicular to said wall.