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What does it take to succesfully transition to a green energy economy?

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Marc v E

Marc v E

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The Dutch and UK governments have just agreed to build a second 2 Gigawatt grid cable between the UK and the Netherlands, with a connection to a major Northsea windturbine park as well. The purpose is to supply each other when there is a national shortage or surplus.
This was announced at the meeting today of government leaders and energy ministers from the EU and the UK, plus the European Commission in Oostende in Belgium. The meeting is to plan the extension of windturbine parks in the Northsea and jointly build the infrastucture and the necessary international connections. Security concerns are also part of the agenda, given Russia's increasing surveyance of these installations. The Dutch navy recently had to gently show the door to a Russian spy ship, and this is by no means unique.
That's really good news. The UK has a great supply of wind energy. It will serve both countries well.
 

Willem

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For North Western Europe, off shore wind will be the game changer, but to do it efficiently and safely (the Northsea is a busy shipping lane) requires cooperation and regulation between a pretty large number of countries. So I am glad to see this is happening.
 

Gorgonzola

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Yesterday Dutch high voltage grid company Tennet announced it is planning the regulation of grid battery storage. They estimate a need for 10 Gigawatt capacity for the country, but already projects for a total of 45 Gigawatt have been proposed by various private companies. Many of these will not come to actual fruition, but regulation is urgently needed to ensure that the right capacity will be installed at the right locations. If that does not happen, the situation for the grid will get worse rather than better.
One project that is very likely to succeed is a commercial 1 Gigawatt/h battery farm on the location of an aluminium factory that recently went belly up due to high energy prices. The location already has a high voltage grid connection and is located close to where a cable from an off shore wind turbine park reaches the shore and close to a grid connection to Germany. The location is also close to the international gas pipeline network (potentially to be used for hydrogen), so it may also be connected to hydrogen generation or distribution development.
With a quick look around I surmise that the most prevalent grid storage in use today is pumped storage for hydro power -- I'd guess Holland, (for instance), has lots of water but not many place where huge amounts can be pumped up into huge reservoirs.

Battery storage of some kind would seem to be more relevant to Holland and many other jurisdictions. Very interesting is that the largest storage battery project is in China where the technology is a "vanadium redux flow battery".
 

Willem

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Hydro power is impossible in the Netherlands. We mostly use up quite a bit of electricity to get rid of the water, given that about half the country is below sea level. I would think that the National Grid will leave the choice of technologies to the private companies as long as there are no downsides like pollution or whatever. By and large I hope and expect that trade with other regions with a different weather and dynamic pricing will deal with most of the variability problem.
 
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Marc v E

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These flow batteries from Australian company Red Flow can hold a charge for months. Only limitation is that their operating temperature should be higher than 15C, which should make them suitable for South of Europe, Australia and certain parts of the US.


Next to these liquid metal batteries from Ambri which are very long lasting and consist of ordinary, readily available materials:


And the ones from Tesla made from Lithium ion batteries:


Looks like we have multiple options to choose from for grid scale battery solutions.
 
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RandomEar

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Marc v E

Marc v E

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A group of experts advised the Dutch government to focus on cleaning up the grid electricity by windmills mainly. They advice against the generous use of Hydrogen because of the huge losses in energy. They also advice against building new nuclear power stations as it's unsure if they would be ready before 2035. By then it would be likely that most if not all of the energy would be supplied by green sources, making the nuclear power stations basically only financially viable if they generate electricity for other countries than our own.

The report Outlook Energiesysteem 2050.pdf in Dutch (no other language unfortunately): https://www.etes2050.nl/publicaties/outlookenergiesysteem2050/default.aspx
 
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Willem

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DeepL will produce a very good translation (much better than Google translate).
 

Dismayed

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Yeah... Quoting Fox News doesn't exactly enhance credibilty. Mad Magazine would be far more believable.
Gee, it was on the Internet, so it must be true!
 

ErVikingo

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Having worked on the finance and planning side of power gen (also mining and oil) in multiple countries and technologies and participated with the UN and other governmental and paragovermental entities, I think we must first start by defining what is green energy?.

Currently (IMHO) the better option is Synth Gas as being made on the Haru Oni pilot plant down in Punta Arenas Chile. In very simple terms, carbon needed comes from carbon capture, hydrogen from electrolysis, electricity for electrolysis from wind driven turbine.

Output is gasoline thus no need for new transport, sales or vehicle infrastructure. No need to pile up thousands of "obsolete cars", no need to mine rare and/or exotic metals.

When the synth gas is burnt, the CO emitted is the one recycled by the carbon capture.

If you add up all the factors behind this tech or EV the "cost" to the planet (and wallets) is way lower.

disclaimer: I am not affiliated with this project.

 

RandomEar

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Having worked on the finance and planning side of power gen (also mining and oil) in multiple countries and technologies and participated with the UN and other governmental and paragovermental entities, I think we must first start by defining what is green energy?.

Currently (IMHO) the better option is Synth Gas as being made on the Haru Oni pilot plant down in Punta Arenas Chile. In very simple terms, carbon needed comes from carbon capture, hydrogen from electrolysis, electricity for electrolysis from wind driven turbine.

Output is gasoline thus no need for new transport, sales or vehicle infrastructure. No need to pile up thousands of "obsolete cars", no need to mine rare and/or exotic metals.

When the synth gas is burnt, the CO emitted is the one recycled by the carbon capture.

If you add up all the factors behind this tech or EV the "cost" to the planet (and wallets) is way lower.

disclaimer: I am not affiliated with this project.

That's even less efficient than the already absymal Hydrogen ICE route. If you work in finance, you should know that this route isn't economically feasible and never will be due to the low efficiency and the enourmus additional capital costs required to build new refineries for the technology, plus about 5 times as much "green" power sources compared to the EV-route.

Overall, the discussion here is pretty tiring if you are informed about current developments and understand the technologies involved. This is currently the route we're taking:
WW-K-12-2022.png

[Source]

People need to understand: This isn't an open question anymore. Scientists, governments and - maybe most importantly - car manufacturers have acknowledged which solutions are viable and the above graph pretty clearly displays which one(s) that will be.

Also, this thread is about a "green economy" and transportation only makes up about 16% of global CO2 emissions today. Energy use in the industry and buildings are both bigger emission sources, agriculture/land use is, too.
 

Willem

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Cars are indeed only a small part of the equation. In the Netherlands industry is responsible for about 50%. Agriculture for maybe 30%.
 

levimax

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People need to understand: This isn't an open question anymore. Scientists, governments and - maybe most importantly - car manufacturers have acknowledged which solutions are viable and the above graph pretty clearly displays which one(s) that will be.
Many scientists and manufacturers are not on board (Toyota and Porsche amoung others) and there are MANY open questions. Government central planners, which have jumped on the "electricity for everything" bandwagon, have historically been the worst possible way to make decisions about picking new technologies and there is no reason to believe it will be different this time.
 

Willem

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have historically been the worst possible way to make decisions about picking new technologies and there is no reason to believe it will be different this time.
Are you a professional economic historian? I am, and you are wrong here. But most of all, any doubts are not a good excuse to delay to get going. The problem is quite simply too urgent, and cannot be dealt with without government action. Mind you, this is not a plea for a stalinist command economy, by no means.
Beyond this, the problem is much larger than cars and their fuel.
 

RandomEar

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Many scientists and manufacturers are not on board (Toyota and Porsche amoung others) and there are MANY open questions.
Not all details are clear, far from it. But the direction 100% is and we're figuring out the rest as we go. That's how progress works, always.

Also, you are misinformed about both, Toyota and Porsche. That's what I meant when I said "the discussion here is pretty tiring if you are informed about current developments and understand the technologies involved".
 

ErVikingo

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That's even less efficient than the already absymal Hydrogen ICE route. If you work in finance, you should know that this route isn't economically feasible and never will be due to the low efficiency and the enourmus additional capital costs required to build new refineries for the technology, plus about 5 times as much "green" power sources compared to the EV-route.

Overall, the discussion here is pretty tiring if you are informed about current developments and understand the technologies involved. This is currently the route we're taking:
View attachment 281853
[Source]

People need to understand: This isn't an open question anymore. Scientists, governments and - maybe most importantly - car manufacturers have acknowledged which solutions are viable and the above graph pretty clearly displays which one(s) that will be.

Also, this thread is about a "green economy" and transportation only makes up about 16% of global CO2 emissions today. Energy use in the industry and buildings are both bigger emission sources, agriculture/land use is, too.
I do work quite a bit on that and, I am privy to a lot of information and have participated on meetings of "the ones in power" and God help us, most ideas are pie in the sky or radical to an extreme. I disagree with most of the models and projects since no one is going for the holistic view.

Best solution would be a radical change which is not enforceable. BTW whilst I agree with your comments on the problem being spread way further than transportation, the title refers to green ENERGY economy.

Approach has to be multitiered and politics have to be stripped out of the discussion. I could write pages on this but some of the basics must include less consumption (not only energy ;) ) and more efficient use and production.

Respectfully, my interpretation of the graph differs from yours. Battery EV are not the most viable, they are the fashionable, feel good ones (EDIT, I own an eTron). Calculations considering mining impacts shows that EV are not the way. Mining is dirty and energy intensive; electricity has to come from somewhere... Go back to my comment on less consumption...

Peace guys, we are all in this together and we are all part of the problem and of the solution.
 
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levimax

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Not all details are clear, far from it. But the direction 100% is and we're figuring out the rest as we go. That's how progress works, always.

Also, you are misinformed about both, Toyota and Porsche. That's what I meant when I said "the discussion here is pretty tiring if you are informed about current developments and understand the technologies involved".
Why am I misinformed on Toyota and Porsche? Toyota is still working on Hydrogen (Both Fuel Cells and ICE) and Porsche just announced it is breaking ground on a solar power synthetic fuel plant.
 
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