What does it take to succesfully transition to a green energy economy?

[EJ3]

You are not always there, you can afford a second home but not a second car. What about the other location? Your life your choice, you can't make it to the "green energy future" that has been made clear more than once and yet you post on this thread. 15 amps charges those cars.

I don't own any vehicles at the other places that I have homes.
As I don't need them there. But I do need them here. But I do not drive enough to justify spending big money on a vehicle. I've put 8500 miles on vehicles since May: (May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December, January, (9 months, If I'm right) Hhmm. I'll help you with the math: 944 miles a month: That's less than 258 gallons of gas.
Please calculate my emissions vs buying a new EV & the $100K of big giant diesel trucks to destroy trees and run a power line capable of handling a charger (that would have to be built 6 feet off of the ground) to fully charge the EV emissions for me to tell me how much I would have helped the world.
I'll allow you to purchase this for me. So that I, through you, can help the world.
And I'll put your name up on a billboard so that you can get the appropriate accolades.

I forgot (because not so important to me) I donated my truck to a family in Western North Carolina who lost their car in the floods caused by hurricane Helene.
I guess that I should have gone out & got an EV instead. Yep, now that you brought up the issue, I'm thinking that would have probably been more helpful.

 

[Cbdb2]

From https://www.nuclearnowfilm.com/

"Beneath our feet, Uranium atoms in the Earth’s crust hold incredibly concentrated energy. Science unlocked this energy in the mid-20th century, first for bombs and then to power submarines. The United States led the effort to generate electricity from this new source. Yet in the mid-20th century as societies began the transition to nuclear power and away from fossil fuels, a long-term PR campaign to scare the public began, funded in part by coal and oil interests. This campaign would sow fear about harmless low-level radiation and create confusion between nuclear weapons and nuclear energy. Looking squarely at the problem, Oliver Stone shows us that knowledge is the antidote to fear, and our human ingenuity will allow us to solve the climate change crisis if we use it."

 

[Petrushka]

It’s so easy to deliver propaganda if you call yourself something virtuous.

I try to be cynical about this, but can’t keep up with the need.

 

[Willem]

@Willem We're currently trying out all kinds of evs. Kia has some good ones. Next up for us to try is Volvo.

We tried the Ciitroen eC4 becausse it is the right size for us, and seems to be rather more comfortable than almost all other EVs. EVs tend to have quite stiff suspension to deal with the additional weight from the battery pack, but Citroen seems to have worked their suspension magic once again. The chairs were also very good, and the cockpit intuitive. I have never been in a Kia or Hyundai that was not harsh and uncomfortable.

 

[EJ3]

It’s so easy to deliver propaganda if you call yourself something virtuous.

I try to be cynical about this, but can’t keep up with the need.

I just figure that one does what one can. The way I was raised.
That is why, I had forgot about it. Nothing virtuous about it at all.
Just normal: help others when you can.

Perhaps different people have different ideas of propaganda: my family was on both sides of WWII. (Father: USA, mother: Austrian)
Having worked in a job that required a Secret Security clearance for 18 years:
Pretty much, if it's promoted by the governments (any government), I'm cynical about it and consider it to be propaganda.

 

[Tinker]

@EJ3 Solar is NOT for everyone. You're a good example (lucky you!). EV's aren't for everyone and there should be NO political mandates that require people to use solar or EV's. I believe the free market inovation will drive the market if it works and saves people money. What I see are people looking to reduce operating cost on both home and their car to save $$$. Their interest has nothing to do with being environmentally "Green". It's about money.

The majority of people drive LESS than 50 miles a day. That's a fact. Those people WILL save money getting an EV. The EV is far more effiecient than a gas car. It has less moving parts and no oil changes and little maintainence. I don't miss going to the gas station and paying $60/$80 or more a week! These EV's are excellent machines that perform the job VERY well and ARE cheaper to operate. Home charging is a must!

The technology in EV's is moving very quickly. Batteries are greatly improving in cost, charge times and range. The whole process is faster and cheaper. China is leading the pack on this one with companies like BYD and Zeeker, etc... producing less expensive alternatives. American car companies somehow need to improve. Difficult to compete. That's why Biden increased the Tariffs 100% on China was to help American car companies survive. Trump the same.

Solar for the home is a bit more complexed issue but again people are wanting it to save money, not to be 'Green'. Many of my friends (both Democrates and Republicans) have monthly electric bills that are over $500 a month and they are exploring ways to get that cost down. They both are feeling the pain. (not saving the planet) Solar works but it must be done correctly or you can possibly lose money in the process. NOT for everyone.

 

[Timcognito]

I don't own any vehicles at the other places that I have homes.
As I don't need them there. But I do need them here. But I do not drive enough to justify spending big money on a vehicle. I've put 8500 miles on vehicles since May: (May, June, July, August, September, October, November, December, January, (9 months, If I'm right) Hhmm. I'll help you with the math: 944 miles a month: That's less than 258 gallons of gas.
Please calculate my emissions vs buying a new EV & the $100K of big giant diesel trucks to destroy trees and run a power line capable of handling a charger (that would have to be built 6 feet off of the ground) to fully charge the EV emissions for me to tell me how much I would have helped the world.
I'll allow you to purchase this for me. So that I, through you, can help the world.
And I'll put your name up on a billboard so that you can get the appropriate accolades.

I forgot (because not so important to me) I donated my truck to a family in Western North Carolina who lost their car in the floods caused by hurricane Helene.
I guess that I should have gone out & got an EV instead. Yep, now that you brought up the issue, I'm thinking that would have probably been more helpful.

I do want to help the world clean up and those others who do. That's why I post on this thread. I designed built solar heated home in 1984 and have been a practicing advocate for renewable energy since I got my ME degree in late 70's. I think your posts on electronics are cool but this is clean energy thread and expect less negativity from those who post here except when debating about clean tech and not just it's existence. The number one growing segment in car sales has been EVs for years now. It doesn't apply to, we get it. Sorry if that sounds rude, but criticism is about that and not your contributions to other threads.

 

[EJ3]

@EJ3 Solar is NOT for everyone. You're a good example (lucky you!). EV's aren't for everyone and there should be NO political mandates that require people to use solar or EV's. I believe the free market inovation will drive the market if it works and saves people money. What I see are people looking to reduce operating cost on both home and their car to save $$$. Their interest has nothing to do with being environmentally "Green". It's about money.

The majority of people drive LESS than 50 miles a day. That's a fact. Those people WILL save money getting an EV. The EV is far more effiecient than a gas car. It has less moving parts and no oil changes and little maintainence. I don't miss going to the gas station and paying $60/$80 or more a week! These EV's are excellent machines that perform the job VERY well and ARE cheaper to operate. Home charging is a must!

The technology in EV's is moving very quickly. Batteries are greatly improving in cost, charge times and range. The whole process is faster and cheaper. China is leading the pack on this one with companies like BYD and Zeeker, etc... producing less expensive alternatives. American car companies somehow need to improve. Difficult to compete. That's why Biden increased the Tariffs 100% on China was to help American car companies survive. Trump the same.

Solar for the home is a bit more complexed issue but again people are wanting it to save money, not to be 'Green'. Many of my friends (both Democrates and Republicans) have monthly electric bills that are over $500 a month and they are exploring ways to get that cost down. They both are feeling the pain. (not saving the planet) Solar works but it must be done correctly or you can possibly lose money in the process. NOT for everyone.

I agree.
In one of my other homes (I got a letter about it 2 days ago), that the power bill starting next month, will go from $159.00 a month to $256.00 a month.
It, too, cannot be found through Google Earth due to tree cover (so solar is out). But, it is (even though it is a single home on a small piece of land [1/4 acre, I think] inside of city limits.
Now, I'm willing to go through the place looking for what I can do to stop leaking air, insulate more, insulate the water heater that is in an attached washer/dryer utility room.
And whatever else makes sense from a financial perspective.
So I'm now willing to spend money to make it more efficient, because I'm suddenly pushed into looking to bring the cost of it down.
Then, I have to look into how much to do (spend) and how long it will take to get the savings back from how much I spend.
It's all about the economics of it.
Nothing else.

 

[Willem]

Their interest has nothing to do with being environmentally "Green". It's about money.

Here, many - and that include me and my wife, and effectively nearly all our well heeled neighbours - do it because we believe it is better for the future of the planet and hence of our children. At the same time money comes into it. If it costs about as much or as little as the fossil fuel alternative, it is a no brainer. In reality the calculation may not be so easy, because it tends to involve an investment with not quite so precisely known financial and environmental returns. Thus far I have used potential financial return as a proxy measure of the environmental return as well. The solar panels were a no brainer, the home insulation project also paid for itself and additionally made the house more comfortable. The outcome for the heatpump project is still ambiguous. The ecological benefit is obvious, but the financial one perhaps not so much. We shall see. A lot will ultimately depend on the volatile price of fossil fuel, and the ever lower cost of sustainable electricity. An EV and triple glazing are the next two projects, and for both the timing will depend on when the current double glazing and our old car give up.
As for our current monthly electricity cost for everything: some 100-150 euros, and no natural gas bill anymore. Right now it is freezing outside.

 

[Alice of Old Vincennes]

In 2021 25% of Dutch electricity was from solar panels and wind turbines, and rapidly increasing. The grid is coping, but there is also a lot of investment to expand it, and increase long distance transport capacity to connect to regions with different climate and weather. Research into hydrogen storage is ongoing, and hydrogen storage would obviously offer an interesting option to store electricity. Two new nuclear power stations are now also in the planning to provide a floor in the production. The first electricity companies have now introduced dynamic pricing, and we are waiting for the first domestic appliances to arrive to benefit from off peak hours. Finally, saving energy also helps a lot. As a family we have reduced our private electricity consumption by about 20% last year, and for the country as a whole electricity consumption went down by about 25%.
There really is no alternative, and we will almost certainly have to use each and every technology. The mechanism will be the tried and tested combination of the price mechanism and public investment in infrastructure, and interventions with subsidies and taxes to get things going, i.e. the basic playbook of any economics textbook.

Dynamic pricing. Euphemism for jacked up prices for a/c during heat wave. I grew up without a/c. Body adjusts. Reverse scenario with electric heat. Just look at CA and Germany for a great model.

 

[Willem]

It's all about the economics of it.

Looking into it carefully can be very worthwhile. Before we moved over to the electric heat pump we lowered our electricity consumption from an excessive by Dutch standards 6000 kWh a year to about 4500 kWh: some equipement in your house may well use inordinate amounts of electricity. We saved quite a bit on the old Samsung set top box that used 75 per hour, and that 24/7. Other unexpected big users were the two old electric pumps for our floor heating (modern ones are far more economical). Our old fridge still uses about 350 kWh a year, while a modern equivalent happily does the same job for 100 kWh. My modern mini PC uses about a quarter of what the old one did, and is faster in the bargain. Technology really has been moving on, and it is worth paying attention when it is time to buy somethng new anyway (it is rarely worth it to replace gear that is still functioning, although with the floor heating pumps and the set top box it was). Led lights are another no brainer.

 

[Timcognito]

Solar for the home is a bit more complexed issue but again people are wanting it to save money, not to be 'Green'. Many of my friends (both Democrates and Republicans) have monthly electric bills that are over $500 a month and they are exploring ways to get that cost down. They both are feeling the pain. (not saving the planet) Solar works but it must be done correctly or you can possibly lose money in the process. NOT for everyone.

I bought my solar system 5 years ago. On it's current rate its initial cost will paid in 1.5 years from now, I will have free electricty then and in 2024 my total electric bill was $211. I own a PHEV since 2023. I believe in facts, and the $$$ you talk about.

Many talk about subsidies and ignore the $100s millions spent on lobbing and political campaigns to slow clean energy and cite the so called free economy that does not exist, not in the US anyway. People do buy EVs and solar to save planet but end up saving money also but those who have a vested interest in existing tech or hate change stress free choice. The sun and wind go into the wires on site and into every structure in the modern world. There is no drilling, mining, refining, transportation, middlemen and very little CO2 it is a win win except for those who have vested interest in stopping it.

 

[EJ3]

Dynamic pricing. Euphemism for jacked up prices for a/c during heat wave. I grew up without a/c. Body adjusts. Reverse scenario with electric heat. Just look at CA and Germany for a great model.

Yep, we no longer travel to Austria, Germany & Italy (my 91 year old mother who grew up in Austria [& had whooping cough during WWII, which is now affecting her lungs negatively {& hot weather may put her in the hospital at any time}]) during June, July & August because of that.
Personally, I do not tolerate it well, either.
Maybe for me it's the extreme temperature changes (I lived for 17 years in a place that does not change more than 8 degrees F in a day all year [Saipan, if you want to check]).

 

[Willem]

Dynamic pricing

It makes economic sense, and I like the market mechanism. Over here, people with dynamic pricing pay rather less on average because the power company saves on the implied insurance premium. Yes, when demand is high, the price goes up, and you can adjust your behaviour.

 

[Marc v E]

We tried the Ciitroen eC4 becausse it is the right size for us, and seems to be rather more comfortable than almost all other EVs. EVs tend to have quite stiff suspension to deal with the additional weight from the battery pack, but Citroen seems to have worked their suspension magic once again. The chairs were also very good, and the cockpit intuitive. I have never been in a Kia or Hyundai that was not harsh and uncomfortable.

We tried the Kia EV9 which was comfortable but way too big for us. It has a rather soft suspension ime. I've heard about evs having a hard suspension on quite a few reviews and maybe I've just been lucky so far ?

One other attribute of evs that I value tremendously is the lack of noise.

 

[EJ3]

I agree.
In one of my other homes (I got a letter about it 2 days ago), that the power bill starting next month, will go from $159.00 a month to $256.00 a month.
It, too, cannot be found through Google Earth due to tree cover (so solar is out). But, it is (even though it is a single home on a small piece of land [1/4 acre, I think] inside of city limits.
Now, I'm willing to go through the place looking for what I can do to stop leaking air, insulate more, insulate the water heater that is in an attached washer/dryer utility room.
And whatever else makes sense from a financial perspective.
So I'm now willing to spend money to make it more efficient, because I'm suddenly pushed into looking to bring the cost of it down.
Then, I have to look into how much to do (spend) and how long it will take to get the savings back from how much I spend.
It's all about the economics of it.
Nothing else.

Maybe, some

Reliabilt (Lowe's) 3500 Series Replacement Window​

My windows are the old "Jubilee" windows with a hand crank to open them. Their big advantage is that you CANNOT open them from outside without breaking them.
The disadvantage is single pane and ancient, leak air. And require a major reworking of the window holes for the new ones would fit in.
I can probably make a big difference by properly putting weather strip on them, insulating the water heater in the utility room (attached to the house).
After I get the place cleaned up, I'll get one of those "home efficiency" experts to take a look & figure out what makes sense for me to do.
I know that new windows are not in the cards for at least a year, so I've got to do all that I can do to fix what I can.
Before my major accident a few years ago, I could build a house by myself. Now, waling 200 feet & back to get the mail is an issue.
This will be a challenge to see what (and how much), I can actually do.
100% it will require taking it slowly.
I have managed to convert all of the lightbulbs to LED ones and the electric stove to a natural gas one (since there was natural gas plumbed to the house last year for the heating system [which replaced a fuel oil fireplace]), so that's a start.

 

[EJ3]

Dynamic pricing. Euphemism for jacked up prices for a/c during heat wave. I grew up without a/c.

Being as my father & mother owned a Plumbing, Heating and AC contracting business (When I was born in Salzburg, Austria in March 8, 1957 and about 2 months later, when my mother & I arrived at my father's in Charleston, SC USA) in spite of living in an apartment behind my grandparents, we had AC.
So, I grew up around it but stayed at many places that did not have it when I was young. Including my 9 trips to visit relatives in Europe while I was growing up.
Hmm: Dynamic pricing. Euphemism for jacked up prices for a/c during heat wave.
Government authorized/mandated price gouging?

 

[EJ3]

We tried the Kia EV9 which was comfortable but way too big for us. It has a rather soft suspension ime. I've heard about evs having a hard suspension on quite a few reviews and maybe I've just been lucky so far ?

One other attribute of evs that I value tremendously is the lack of noise.

The lack of noise just makes me listen to my tinnitus.
If I was by myself (which I wouldn't be in that type of car, as it cannot go the places I go when I have no passenger maybe get there but 100% not get back), I would turn the radio on.
But at the level I need it to help me, it's unacceptable to my wife (who doesn't like music anyway).

 

[Willem]

Hmm: Dynamic pricing. Euphemism for jacked up prices for a/c during heat wave.
Government authorized/mandated price gouging?

Oh no, it is just the logic of the market economy.

 

[EERecordist]

One of my professional areas is the electricity grid. In the US and many countries there are wholesale electricity markets for energy - KWh or MWh. The price varies every 5, 15, or 60 minutes in a bidding system. The generators bid in the lowest cost they will sell for, and the market operator selects the bids from lowest to highest. The market monitor audits the transactions to prevent market manipulation and market manipulators are fined millions.

In the US, the wholesale price most times is about 3 to 4 cents per KWh. It can go negative, say minus 1 cent. There is usually a market cap at $20 to $50 per KWh. Our home electric bills take the wholesale price, summed over the entire year, peaks and valleys, and that is the energy bill. Added to that is the capital cost of all the wires and substations, captive generators, expenses of billing and customer service, all the trucks and employees, and taxes if the utility is a for-profit utility. In the Western states, and we have drying and shorter wet seasons leading to wildfire loss when the utility has to pay for wildfire cost, that goes in the bill for all.

There are wholesale market reform proposals and converting for-profit utilities to nonprofit, but delivering electricity is subject to costs in the whole economy.

The theory of time-varying rates is not to make rapacious profits in for-profit utilities. It is an attempt (most customers are not ready for) to provide a price signal to customers on when to use electricity. There is a lot of work across the industry to reduce use on peak days - Summer, Winter, or both, and in peak hours - 5PM-10PM. Home batteries can do that. I have my ideas for wholesale electricity market reform, which would apply to oil too, but that is a different topic.

Long ago, in the days of dial-up modems, colleagues of mine at the federal lab (I wast not at the lab) built a system using dial up modems, to provide prices to a large, mostly rural area, with many retirees, in our region. The customers were able to reduce their energy 15%. They were very unhappy when the experiment ended and the equipment was removed.

In most parts of the US, insulation and weather sealing is the most effective way of saving. It is a long term investment, sometimes utilities subsidize it or finance it by on-bill financing.

Utilities do a very poor job communicating and providing information to their customers, so a lot of misinformation is out there, just like in audio!