What does it take to succesfully transition to a green energy economy?

[D2013]

In fact, we brought up our children when we did not have a car. We took them to school on our bikes, and from the age of about five they would ride their own bikes to school, and from about ten (?) I think unsupervised. We did long loaded cycle touring holidays with them, including in the Alps, when my then ten year old daughter would descent the pretty long Maloja Pas in the Alps on her own bike.

That's feasible for some people even here were I live when the weather is good, and they live close enough to their children's school. My sons school is about 6 miles from my home, and when you consider the extreme heat and extreme cold we we get indifferent parts of the year its just not realistic.

In the late summer when school starts we can have days where the humidity pushes the feel like temp well north of 100F. we get the other extreme in the winter time as well, last year we had a 2 day period where the wind chill was between -30F & -40F. Most schools actually closed on safety grounds.

 

[Willem]

That's feasible for some people even here were I live when the weather is good, and they live close enough to their children's school. My sons school is about 6 miles from my home, and when you consider the extreme heat and extreme cold we we get indifferent parts of the year its just not realistic.

In the late summer when school starts we can have days where the humidity pushes the feel like temp well north of 100F. we get the other extreme in the winter time as well, last year we had a 2 day period where the wind chill was between -30F & -40F. Most schools actually closed on safety grounds.

I know some parts of the US have a pretty extreme climate. I have lived in North Carolina and New Jersey, so I know the two extremes. Even so, my kids have cycled to school here in the north of the Netherlands when it was about 0F (with snow) but also 95F. Hot weather is worst when you have to climb as well (we don't over here, but we do when we ride in e.g. Italy) and therefore do not benefit from the cooling wind. In cold weather you need to cover your extremities more than when you are just walking, and use winter tyres. Car style winter tyres do exist for bicycles, and they are a lot safer. We mount them every late Autumn. But yes, I am sure there are times when I would not ride my bike in the US North East or the Deep South.

 

[Willem]

Here is a snapshot it is overcast and 60 deg F the wife is using the the microwave as take this. It shows I am receiving 1.1 kw solar and using 1.1 kw. San Jose' 40 miles SE is 73 and sunny.View attachment 398920

We tend to have quite cloudy weather in the Netherlands , but even then the solar panels produce a lot. Our problem is the seasonal cycle that is more pronounced than in the US, given our far more northern location. Right now, our panels produce 1.7 kWh, which is a lot more than our current consumption: net surplus is 0.8 kWh, with the heat pump heating our house, but not yet that much. Our panels are in an East West orientation, to optimize production early in the day and late in the afternoon.

 

[EJ3]

I am a bit puzzled. Here we have competition between private power companies. I can choose from a few dozen, so as per economics textbook, their prices are very similar. They all use and have equal access to the same grid. Some mostly generate their own electricity, others largely buy on the European market. Do people in the US have only one power company in their region?

YES. At least where I am at.

 

[EJ3]

That's feasible for some people even here were I live when the weather is good, and they live close enough to their children's school. My sons school is about 6 miles from my home, and when you consider the extreme heat and extreme cold we we get indifferent parts of the year its just not realistic.

In the late summer when school starts we can have days where the humidity pushes the feel like temp well north of 100F. we get the other extreme in the winter time as well, last year we had a 2 day period where the wind chill was between -30F & -40F. Most schools actually closed on safety grounds.

We have actual temperatures of 103-105 for weeks at a time. The feels like temp is 115.
This was normal when I was growing up and has not changed in the last 60+ years.
And if the humidity is below 95% there is something wrong with the weather pattern.
I was born in Austria and Europeans have absolutely no clue unless they have been here.

 

[Willem]

I know. As I wrote, I have lived in North Carolina, and it was pretty grim at times, with wet streets, but not from the rain.

 

[Ismapics]

The ability to cool only the rooms you're using makes so much sense, and the added bonus of controlling the temperature remotely is a huge convenience.

I’m also really impressed with your solar AC plans. The direct connection to the solar panels without needing extra inverters or permits is a big win, and the cost savings are pretty incredible. It’s awesome to hear that the panels are affordable now too — that makes it more accessible for homeowners to start reducing their electricity bills.

It seems like you’re on the cutting edge with both energy efficiency and DIY solutions, and I love how you’re integrating multiple systems to make everything as efficient as possible. If you continue expanding on this, it’d be great to hear how the solar AC performs long-term!

Here in PR where is hot 12 months a year, a local company has the record for more Tesla bat installed in 1 year. The model is simple, say you pay $200 in electricity, sometimes more. They come in and design a system that meets your needs and finance it for 20 years. They tell the homeowner, you pay $200 today, how about paying $180 for the next 20 guaranteed. They make a ton of cash, the loan is part guaranteed against your house and the system itself, they build an insurance cost into the deal (you know hurricanes) and also an extended service guarantee. Also since we have so much sun, any electricity sold back they keep. So a system costing $27K, it will cost the owner $43.2K but they don't feel it as they would have to pay utilities anyway.

 

[Tinker]

@Ismapics Those Tesla systems are NOT the way to go. For lazy people where all you have to do is sign on the dotted line. The profits go in other peoples pockets. Negative things not discussed are... Insurance companies see a solar roof install as a liability and increasing rates or refusing coverage. Also, when you need a new roof the system needs to be completely removed and then replaced again. New home buyers are being warned by building inspectors and many want the system removed. Every year that system ages it's more of a liability.

Also not discussed are maintainence costs. You will have to pay for a cleaning service to wash the roof top panels. Dirt and pollen will quickly reduce the efficiency and need yearly cleaning. I'm NOT getting up on the roof.

A solar panel panel array is a simple install. The solar panels themselves are very inexpensive as are the frames they sit in. It does NOT have to be tied to the grid which requires proffessional licenced installers, permits and inspection fees. A ground mount is the most logical. Easiest to clean or replace any damaged panels but does require some space. Second best is a patio roof top accessible by step ladder. NEVER put it up on your roof.

After the sun goes down you'll have no electricity?? That is true unless you store that excess electricity into batteries. This then becomes a 24 hour use. Many companies (like EcoFlo) offer battery storage you can purchase. It's small, compact and easy to use. However, the newest recent innovation I've seen is electric cars are being designed with a plug to go from the car into to your house. That car is a huge battery storage sitting in your garage. Can be used daily or for emergency power when needed. So, if you drive an EV you may want to get one with this feature and negate the purchase of battery packs.

BTW... other countries (China, Australia, Germany etc...) are transitioning from coal and Nuclear and installing huge solar power grids that are backed by battery power storage for 24 hour supply. These batteries have 25 year life span (possibly more)

So, if you have space, you can go solar to any level you want.

Phase #1 just run the AC directly off solar panels during the day. Switches seemlessly over to the grid after dark. (This is the bulk of your electric bill) Quickest return on investment.
Phase#2 Run the AC during the day and use batteries at night.
Phase#3 Run the entire house day and night with 100% solar using batteries. Use the grid only in emergency.

What ever level you choose install it yourself. Pay for an electrician to help you if needed. Not difficult and will be MUCH less costly especially if you DIY the project instead of paying a team of Tesla workers.

There is NO advantage of connecting your solar system to the grid...EVER. You don't need to supply them electricity and making your electric meter run backwards is misleading. You will always have to pay a minimum amount no matter how much electricty you produce.

 

[Willem]

It is time to report back after we have had our heat pump heating and hot water system for a full year. We live in a large (225 sqm) very well insulated modern house, and we have had solar panels for quite a while, but those only produce meaningful quantities during 7-8 months of the year, given our northern location. But in Summer they produce more than we consume. In total over the whole year the panels produce about 4500kWh, which used to be about equal to our annual electricity consumption. Dutch law still allows you to sell back your surplus to the electricity company for the same price you are buying it in the darker months. Given that so many househoulds now have solar panels, this is no longer viable, of course, and will be abolished next year. As for the electricity consumption of the heat pump that produces our heating and warm tap water, electricity consumption for the year was about 5000 kWh (I can measure it separately from the rest of the system). On the other hand, our consumption of natural gas has gone down from 1800 m3 to zero (it was 2600 m3 before our home insulation project), and we are no longer connected to the natural gas system, so we are saving their connection charge as well.
Financially the solar panels were a great investment, and so was the home insulation project, where we went almost as far as you can with an existing 1998 home. Triple glazing will be the last thing we can do, when our existing high quality double glazing reaches the end of its life, sometime during the next ten years. Doing that only makes financial sense if and when the existing glass has to be replaced anyway. The same applied to our roof insulation, which we did when the existing roof started to leak, and the heating system when the old natural gas boiler was near the end of its life. As for the extra electricity cost from moving over to the heat pump, our electricity costs about 47 euros a month in fixed grid connection and delivery charges, plus 0.31 euro per kWh. The latter includes euro 0.13 per kWh energy tax, but only on consumption above about 4800 kWh. Since our actual consumption is barely more than that, our effective electricity price is about euro 0.18 per kWh, apart from the last 200 kWh or so. Therefore, investing a bit more in electricity saving such as buying a new fridge to replace our old one is still worth it for now. At current prices our energy consumption now costs about 1400 euros a year less for a net investment of about 12000 euros. That sounds good, but the depreciation on the heat pump probably eats up much of the financial saving on energy cost.
The big issue for the near future will be the abolition of the guaranteed pricing for our surplus electricity sold to the grid on summer days. This is where an EV comes in. Since electricity prices wil be close to zero during the Summer months, we can divert that electricity to charge an EV rather than sell it back to the grid for almost nothing, and even more effectively with a smart meter and a car that can also feed back into the house during the night. Unfortunately we shall still have to buy in electricity during the cold and dark Winter months, but that is what it is, given our northern location - no battery will help with this. Our rather nice ICE car is now 26 year old, and only has a few more years of life in it, but no more. So we already did a test drive in a modern Citroen eC4, and it was superbly smooth and comfortable, so that or something similar is on the cards a few years from now.
As for green energy, in 2023 half of Dutch electricity was from renewable sources, and 52% of that (and rapidly increasing) from wind power, with solar 36%. Biomass is a controversial (because many argue that it is not really green) 12% of electricity.

 

[Marc v E]

@Willem We're currently trying out all kinds of evs. Kia has some good ones. Next up for us to try is Volvo.

 

[EJ3]

If I read it correctly page 20 outlines the batteries needed for the transition in the US: 815 GW to create an annual capacity of 6.5TWh

View attachment 277530

I live under tree cover so dense that you cannot find my home via google earth (you'll se the entrance of my drive way from the street).
So: please explain how rooftop solar is going to work here?
How much environmental tree cutting damage will I have to do?
Also, due to the tree cover, I have a very low power bill: cool in the summer & warmer in the winter than, say, areas where the wind can blow through freely because there are no trees. (it only snows around here about once every 7 years, there may be snow on the ground for 1-4 days).

 

[Timcognito]

@Willem We're currently trying out all kinds of evs. Kia has some good ones. Next up for us to try is Volvo.

Hyundai Ionic, Chevrolet Equinox (US name), Volvo is retiring the V60 but the platform is in many of their cars should be deals on that hybrid.

 

[EJ3]

When that happens the transition will happen automatically.

As of now, "green" energy needs subsidies and rich and upper-middle class people buy Teslas (as a 2nd or 3rd car) and these are the same people who can afford solar panels.

And then the Tesla is usually charged with natural gas or coal. The best and biggest source of renewable energy is hydro power and building new big dams is out of the question in the U.S.

Natural gas is pretty darn clean, especially when you compare it to coal.
It's a big step in reducing the the much, much higher emissions (from untreated coal stacks).
What the coal emissions are from treated stacks, I do not know, so can't comment.
Not a particular issue with my fairly natural lifestyle, living in a forest, on the banks of a river.

 

[Marc v E]

I live under tree cover so dense that you cannot find my home via google earth (you'll se the entrance of my drive way from the street).
So: please explain how rooftop solar is going to work here?
How much environmental tree cutting damage will I have to do?
Also, due to the tree cover, I have a very low power bill: cool in the summer & warmer in the winter than, say, areas where the wind can blow through freely because there are no trees. (it only snows around here about once every 7 years, there may be snow on the ground for 1-4 days).

I think I don't need to convince anyone in a situation like that. If it were me I would get energy from the grid, simple as that. Iirc the proposed "every rooftop has to be covered for 1/4 th" to get the desired energy needs, is just an average. Some will have more, some less.

 

[Snarfie]

Tesla has just released their plan for the energy transition.

What is takes in energy, mining and what amount of batteries we need. And of course the costs.

Turns out it will cost 40% less than what the oil industry cost us the past 20 years, uses 50% less energy at the source and will use less mining.

Let's discuss based on the numbers they came up with. The report can be found here: https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/Tesla-Master-Plan-Part-3.pdf

Accepting Reality.

 

[EJ3]

Hyundai Ionic, Chevrolet Equinox (US name), Volvo is retiring the V60 but the platform is in many of their cars should be deals on that hybrid.

If it is not at least as capable as a Subaru CrossTrek Wilderness Edition, it won't make it within 5 miles of my house.
And at my house, the power line breaker box (I am at the very end of the power line) only has enough for me to have two 15 AMP, 120 Volt breakers.
A very capable hybrid vehicle might be feasible here (maybe).
Living IN the forest, I'm not getting solar that would work.
But it is very rare to need to run the AC (like 4 hours a day in peak summer).
Heat in the winter is needed a bit more, but lot's of fallen trees provide for the fire place.

 

[Timcognito]

If it is not at least as capable as a Subaru CrossTrek Wilderness Edition, it won't make it within 5 miles of my house.
And at my house, the power line breaker box (I am at the very end of the power line) only has enough for me to have two 15 AMP, 120 Volt breakers.
A very capable hybrid vehicle might be feasible here (maybe).
Living IN the forest, I'm not getting solar that would work.
But it is very rare to need to run the AC (like 4 hours a day in peak summer).
Heat in the winter is needed a bit more, but lot's of fallen trees provide for the fire place.

Yeah but that was for Marc who is in the market for an EV. You should not even look. Not because you could not find a suitable vehicle but you do not have an open mind about them.

The 2025 Subaru Solterra.

Powered by love.

www.subaru.com

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/here-are-10-electric-roaders

 

[EJ3]

I think I don't need to convince anyone in a situation like that. If it were me I would get energy from the grid, simple as that. Iirc the proposed "every rooftop has to be covered for 1/4 th" to get the desired energy needs, is just an average. Some will have more, some less.

The grid ends where I am. If I want more that the two 15 amp circuits I have from them, I will have to pay over $100K USD to get them to run it to me.
It's interesting that I have to pay them $35 USD for months when I an not here (I empty the refrigerator & unplug it and the water pump) before I leave, so the only thing on is a few security cameras. They claim that it is for system maintenance. (Maybe, because they don't charge me to reconnect after the annual floods [it is a natural, un-damned river, after all] {during which time I boat in from however far the water came up, I can walk under the cabin & the water doesn't get within a foot of the bottom of the cabin}).

 

[EJ3]

Yeah but that was for Marc who is in the market for an EV. You should not even look. Not because you could not find a suitable vehicle but you do not have an open mind about them.

The 2025 Subaru Solterra.

Powered by love.

www.subaru.com

https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/here-are-10-electric-roaders

Ahm, because they are not feasible where I am at.
By the way, I do have one of those Subaru CrossTreks. I had to lift it 2 more inches.
I also have a truck that I had to do nothing to. But I prefer driving the Subaru, when it is feasible.
With modifications, it is the least capable vehicle that can get me home, under most conditions.
You are the one that thinks that EV's will somehow magically work everywhere.
I am the one that deals with reality. And do believe that EV's are fine and good. Just not for everything.
No fantasy reality here. Since you seem to be so RICH (I live on $2037 a month for my wife & I) I'll allow you put your money where your moth is: you may use you INCREDABLE intellect to buy my family a suitable vehicle. PROVE YOUR BS.

 

[Timcognito]

Ahm, because they are not feasible where I am at.
You are the one that thinks that they will somehow magically work everywhere.

You are not always there, you can afford a second home but not a second car. What about the other location? Your life your choice, you can't make it to the "green energy future" that has been made clear more than once and yet you post on this thread. 15 amps charges those cars.