What does it take to succesfully transition to a green energy economy?

[Blumlein 88]

I consult on the utility side. Washington State is unique with most of the state served by nonprofit electrical utilities supplied by the nonprofit Bonneville Power Administration. In 1980, the Northwest Energy Act required a 20 year power plan every 5 years and that in that plan efficiency receive a 10% premium over new generation construction. There is a regional technical process by engineers that studies efficiency and publishes the cost and savings by deemed efficiency measures.

Further Washington is a net energy exporter, primarily to California. That can be seen by the US Department of Energy real time electricity map https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric_overview/US48/US48. If you click on a circle, there is a graph of interchange - power imports and exports. There are also some policy projects driven by the for-profit utilities I strongly disagree with to reduce the price California, primarily for-profit utilities pay for clean energy imports from Washington. That can be seen by the West Coast energy pricing system driven by California at https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/prices.

The point is that Washington really does not need to build as much new renewable generation as it is doing and it does not need to join the California for-profit energy market.

Since the 1980, the State of Washington has applied the ideas of the Bonneville efficiency engineering cost/benefit studies to the building code. Washington was an early leader in another dynamic efficiency system, customer load flexibility. That requires the building heating and cooling and hot water heating respond to utility signals when energy prices are high on the hottest and coldest days in the afternoon and evening. That simple flexibility can save a lot of money.

If you are building residential, the Washington code is likely requiring building sealing, thicker insulation, better doors and windows, and more efficient mechanical systems. Space heating and cooling with heat pumps is easy. I would agree heat pump water heaters are not ready for prime time, yet. Generally residential customers expect at least a 10 year life for their mechanical systems.

If you are building in Clark County, they are somewhat of a special case as a slice customer. They have an about 250MW natural gas generator that takes a long time to start and stop. They would likely seek to phase that out and replace it with renewables backed by storage, or with increased purchases from the Mid-C generators, Chelan, Douglas, and Grant.

In summary, Washington and its nonprofit utilities have world-leading energy planning policy, low electricity prices, and efficiency in buildings other states can emulate.

If you are in the Clark-Thurston area, I'm in Portland and glad to chat over coffee. I'm interested in the architect/builder efficiency experience.

The state government where I live was captured by the power company basically. They have rules, permits and fees designed to make it cost ineffective to ever recover your expense using residential solar. There is finally a class action suit on these rules which are known to have been crafted by the power company.

Long way around to say, they have the option for a minor rebate in your bill if you allow them to have a kill switch on your HVAC unit. They won't use it more than 30 minutes at a time per day. This would allow them to shift some peak demand in the summer when they are having to run up near the limits. Of course this saves me no money as the HVAC just has to work harder after it comes back on to catch up. When they send me the mailers trying to get me to opt in my thought has always been, "if only there were a way for me to generate some extra power on those cloudless hot days to help reduce their peak needs. You know something that worked best the sunnier it is. Oh yeah, there is and the bastards make it unaffordable for me to have that."

Now I would be happier if they invested more in large solar so I can just pay the bill. They have a couple projects in the works, but have been foot dragging on implementing it for a few years. Maybe it doesn't make for good economics for them. They still don't have to artificially make it bad economics for me to do it locally. Maybe a 15 year pay-off suits me and it is too slow for them. We'd both benefit if I did it.

 

[Timcognito]

I'm spending a pile to rip mine out. It makes furniture placement (especially bookcases) a real challenge and the boiler heats up the subbasement inordinately (that's where I like to store food and wine). Looking at other alternatives, no idea what yet.

Give these guys a call. They are free service that vets contractors and acts a go between for energy up grades and no contractor will contact you directly until you have reviewed their quotes, choosing them. When I was getting jacked around by Tesla on scheduling my solar stuff these people where very helpful in dealing with them.

Compare and save on clean home energy solutions

EnergySage is the simplest way to shop for clean home energy solutions. Join over 50,000 homeowners who have electrified their homes with EnergySage.

www.energysage.com

 

[blueone]

I consult on the utility side. Washington State is unique with most of the state served by nonprofit electrical utilities supplied by the nonprofit Bonneville Power Administration.

The Bonneville Power Administration is not a non-profit. The BPA is a US government federal agency in the Department of Energy. In reality, the BPA generates revenue and profit beyond its expenses, and the surplus is returned to the US Treasury in the form of principal and interest resulting from issuance of US Treasury debt instruments.

On Sept. 30, the Bonneville Power Administration made its annual payment to the U.S. Department of the Treasury for the 41st consecutive year on time and in full, bringing cumulative payments to approximately $35.4 billion over this period. The total payment for fiscal year 2024 was $792.3 million.

“Making this payment on time and in full for the 41st consecutive year demonstrates BPA's financial strength, and provides clear evidence our financial strategy is working," said Marcus Harris, chief financial officer. “This consistency contributes to our strong credit ratings and amplifies our value to the region."

This year's payment includes $508.3 million in principal and $231.9 million in interest. The principal includes approximately $80 million of additional federal debt payment associated with the fiscal year 2023 Reserves Distribution Clause for Transmission Services. The remaining $52.1 million covers a variety of other costs, including irrigation assistance payments that BPA provides to help irrigators repay their share of certain Bureau of Reclamation projects.

BPA is a self-financed power marketing administration that receives no annual appropriation funding from Congress. Instead, BPA recovers its costs primarily through the sale of electric power and transmission services.

Each year, BPA pays back to the U.S. Treasury a portion of the taxpayers' investment in the Federal Columbia River Power System, which includes the federal hydropower dams that produce renewable electricity and the transmission system.

BPA makes 41st straight Treasury payment

This year’s payment includes $508.3 million in principal and $231.9 million in interest.

www.bpa.gov

 

[JeffS7444]

My rental apartments have mostly employed electric baseboard heaters, which are crap, but they're cheap, landlords like them, and likely so do insurance companies. But I discovered that my 2nd story unit has enough solar gain, and enough heat leaks through from adjoining units (that's a form of passive heating, ain't it? ), that I don't need to turn on the heating at all for much of the winter. But either way, my feet are cold for much of the time.

Radiant heat from hydronic floor heating is real comfy, but there's still a furnace involved.

I've never encountered a kachelöfen, but I hear they're amazing.

 

[Somafunk]

OK so since this has turned into a conversation about fun cars to own... how much of a penalty would you be willing to pay in an era where only EVs are regarded as "approved everyday vehicles"?
I actually have not replaced my everyday fun car after it was totalled. I bought a used EV but it's my GF that drives it. I have an old 2010 911 Targa that I barely drive and is stored at her place too, and I intend to keep for life. I ride my motorcycles day to day. And I will never ever buy a self driving next Gen EV. ever. I detest the idea of owning a car that doesn't want me to drive. I like stick shifts. And other than ABS I. don't really want any gimmicks.

Wouldn’t bother me in the slightest, less noise, less direct pollution

 

[EJ3]

But those are places I can't put furniture. Trust me, I have a LOT of bookcases. I can absolutely see why for those without my book fetish (or desire to use my subbasement for food and wine storage, when the heaters are running, the subbasement gets sweltering from the boiler and the pipes), they can be a great alternative. Just not for me. I have a contractor coming in this week to discuss options.

I do have lots of book cases also. 2 in the den, 2 large ones in the office, and many smaller ones around the house. They get pushed right back onto the baseboard heat, as they all have a back to them. There is no basement, if you dig 2 feet, you will be in salt water here.
Every place is different:
I walk outside the back door and walk 100 ft. to go to my 50 foot long dock that has a floating dock on it to adjust for the 5-9 ft of tidal change twice a day.

 

[EJ3]

Nor is yours for mine.

I have also been in the house that I am in since 1965 (my parents designed and built it in 1964) and do not care to move, it is not for an investment or to otherwise make a profit.

 

[blueone]

The state government where I live was captured by the power company basically. They have rules, permits and fees designed to make it cost ineffective to ever recover your expense using residential solar. There is finally a class action suit on these rules which are known to have been crafted by the power company.

Long way around to say, they have the option for a minor rebate in your bill if you allow them to have a kill switch on your HVAC unit. They won't use it more than 30 minutes at a time per day. This would allow them to shift some peak demand in the summer when they are having to run up near the limits. Of course this saves me no money as the HVAC just has to work harder after it comes back on to catch up. When they send me the mailers trying to get me to opt in my thought has always been, "if only there were a way for me to generate some extra power on those cloudless hot days to help reduce their peak needs. You know something that worked best the sunnier it is. Oh yeah, there is and the bastards make it unaffordable for me to have that."

Now I would be happier if they invested more in large solar so I can just pay the bill. They have a couple projects in the works, but have been foot dragging on implementing it for a few years. Maybe it doesn't make for good economics for them. They still don't have to artificially make it bad economics for me to do it locally. Maybe a 15 year pay-off suits me and it is too slow for them. We'd both benefit if I did it.

Our local power company is in cahoots with Google Nest, to allow them to increase our AC thermostat setting whenever they see fit. I opted out, but the Nests (we have three) still raise our settings by 1F on hot days during peak usage times. Whenever I notice this behavior I countermand it on the Nest phone app, but it's still very annoying, because there's no warning that they're doing it, and locking the Nest through its software doesn't prevent it.

 

[JeffS7444]

Yep, in the name of "green" energy, price people out of being able to make a living.

When thought of in terms of human livelihoods, it's not so easy to de-carbonize quickly, is it!

 

[Tinker]

I consult on the utility side. Washington State is unique with most of the state served by nonprofit electrical utilities supplied by the nonprofit Bonneville Power Administration. In 1980, the Northwest Energy Act required a 20 year power plan every 5 years and that in that plan efficiency receive a 10% premium over new generation construction. There is a regional technical process by engineers that studies efficiency and publishes the cost and savings by deemed efficiency measures.

Further Washington is a net energy exporter, primarily to California. That can be seen by the US Department of Energy real time electricity map https://www.eia.gov/electricity/gridmonitor/dashboard/electric_overview/US48/US48. If you click on a circle, there is a graph of interchange - power imports and exports. There are also some policy projects driven by the for-profit utilities I strongly disagree with to reduce the price California, primarily for-profit utilities pay for clean energy imports from Washington. That can be seen by the West Coast energy pricing system driven by California at https://www.caiso.com/todays-outlook/prices.

The point is that Washington really does not need to build as much new renewable generation as it is doing and it does not need to join the California for-profit energy market.

Since the 1980, the State of Washington has applied the ideas of the Bonneville efficiency engineering cost/benefit studies to the building code. Washington was an early leader in another dynamic efficiency system, customer load flexibility. That requires the building heating and cooling and hot water heating respond to utility signals when energy prices are high on the hottest and coldest days in the afternoon and evening. That simple flexibility can save a lot of money.

If you are building residential, the Washington code is likely requiring building sealing, thicker insulation, better doors and windows, and more efficient mechanical systems. Space heating and cooling with heat pumps is easy. I would agree heat pump water heaters are not ready for prime time, yet. Generally residential customers expect at least a 10 year life for their mechanical systems.

If you are building in Clark County, they are somewhat of a special case as a slice customer. They have an about 250MW natural gas generator that takes a long time to start and stop. They would likely seek to phase that out and replace it with renewables backed by storage, or with increased purchases from the Mid-C generators, Chelan, Douglas, and Grant.

In summary, Washington and its nonprofit utilities have world-leading energy planning policy, low electricity prices, and efficiency in buildings other states can emulate.

If you are in the Clark-Thurston area, I'm in Portland and glad to chat over coffee. I'm interested in the architect/builder efficiency experience.

In Florida air conditioning is the main use of electric. I've installed several mini-split systems that work extremely well. Not only are the units high seer (more than double the efficiency of most central air) but you can air condition only the rooms you are using. No need to AC or heat spare bedrooms that's not being used. The thermostat in each room can be set higher in empty spaces yet a little cool to prevent mold. Only use it when you need it. The master bedroom can be set on a timer so when you go to bed the AC kicks on and the room is nice and cool, yet the rest of the house can be set higher when no one is there. So simple.

The point here is that the AC system is totally customizable and can be controlled even from you phone. So the efficiency extends even further than the basic SEER rating.

The NEST thermostat. SO Simple. Is another handy tool. My son installed it in his 3000 sq. ft. home using central air. The kids go off to school and both he and his wife go to work. House is empty after 7 am. The timer resets the thermostat up to 82 degrees all day during hot 90 degree weather. Then it comes on at 4:30 and is perfectly cool when they return home. His monthly electric bill average is now $325 down from $425. Not bad!! Other homes of this size are now well over $500 a month.

Solar AC... my next adventure. (I'll be doing several of these in N.C. also.) Again, here in Florida our AC is by far the biggest chunk of energy used. They now have available High efficiency Mini-split units that have built in inverters so you can plug the solar panel DIRECTLY. No need for additional inverters or permits from the electric company. When the sun goes down the unit is also connected to the grid and switches over as needed. Off the patio will be a roof holding solar panels. BTW... the solar panels are super cheap at about $150 per panel ( each 350 watt approx.) will require about 6 panels.

FYI...The Solar programs here installing panels on your roof and connecting to the grid will run you in excess of $50k !! Connecting 6 panels and the cost of the multi-head unit (depending on the size) has a cost of less than than $4k. It's an easy DIY project so my labor to install is not included in the price. (you DON'T need an electrician if your handy) Everything is installed to code.

As I'm sure you know, these units are heat pumps also. I had one recently installed in N.Y. state working perfectly. Using solar panels it even works during a power outage. (would require battery backup for night use) Not a problem.

Total cost as shown (not including labor) around $1000. Yes! PV panels really are that cheap.

The electric line goes straight to the mini-split. Easy breezy.

 

[Tinker]

The state government where I live was captured by the power company basically. They have rules, permits and fees designed to make it cost ineffective to ever recover your expense using residential solar.

This only applies if you are connecting solar to the grid. Yes, it becomes ridiculously expensive. If you connect solar directly to the appliance in your home there is nothing to stop you. Not even a permit is needed. Just plug it in.

 

[Jim Taylor]

I've never encountered a kachelöfen, but I hear they're amazing.

They're not. Mark Twin was full of crap. There's a limit to the storage of specific heat (water is 1 BTU per pound of water per degree change) and kachelofens are in the lower regions of effectiveness. Brick has a specific heat of only .22, less than a quarter of water.
Alternately, you can build something like this:

But it's very large, and the weight means that it needs to be integrated into the construction of the building from the initial design stage.

Jim

 

[EERecordist]

The Bonneville Power Administration is not a non-profit. The BPA is a US government federal agency in the Department of Energy. In reality, the BPA generates revenue and profit beyond its expenses, and the surplus is returned to the US Treasury in the form of principal and interest resulting from issuance of US Treasury debt instruments.

BPA makes 41st straight Treasury payment

This year’s payment includes $508.3 million in principal and $231.9 million in interest.

www.bpa.gov

The electricity business in the US is about $500B in revenues annually and invests about $100B in capital annually - which they borrow to do. 80% of the electric utility revenue is for-profit investor-owned utilities. They usually return their profits as dividends to shareholders.

If you look at any utility balance sheet, for-profit or nonprofit, they have debt, and thus interest payments on their income/expense sheet. It is not unusual to have outstanding debt of half revenue or more.

In fact, BPA is a nonprofit. They borrow at preferential rates from the federal government. For-profits issue corporate bonds to borrow, and nonprofits issue municipal bonds or other bonds.

The BPA and other federal power marketing agencies were set up by President Roosevelt to provide a nonprofit benchmark for power prices for people to see in comparison to for-profit electric utilities. I'm all for nonprofit electric, water, and sewer utilities. Others may differ on that. In my experience, nonprofit utilities are well managed, and better managed in many cases that for-profit utilities.

 

[EJ3]

When thought of in terms of human livelihoods, it's not so easy to de-carbonize quickly, is it!

It took a long time, to get this way (just like gaining weight) and, if done right SLOWLY, we can get a lot better. But if done too quickly, a lot of mistakes will be made, and we will most likely find ourselves in a worse predicament (just like loosing weight TOO FAST).
Too many people trying to do to much at once, not realizing that ones plans are screwing the way of other peoples plans. There needs to be EXTREME, coordination here, NOT extreme speed.

 

[EJ3]

In Florida air conditioning is the main use of electric. I've installed several mini-split systems that work extremely well. Not only are the units high seer (more than double the efficiency of most central air) but you can air condition only the rooms you are using. No need to AC or heat spare bedrooms that's not being used. The thermostat in each room can be set higher in empty spaces yet a little cool to prevent mold. Only use it when you need it. The master bedroom can be set on a timer so when you go to bed the AC kicks on and the room is nice and cool, yet the rest of the house can be set higher when no one is there. So simple.

The point here is that the AC system is totally customizable and can be controlled even from you phone. So the efficiency extends even further than the basic SEER rating.

The NEST thermostat. SO Simple. Is another handy tool. My son installed it in his 3000 sq. ft. home using central air. The kids go off to school and both he and his wife go to work. House is empty after 7 am. The timer resets the thermostat up to 82 degrees all day during hot 90 degree weather. Then it comes on at 4:30 and is perfectly cool when they return home. His monthly electric bill average is now $325 down from $425. Not bad!! Other homes of this size are now well over $500 a month.

Solar AC... my next adventure. (I'll be doing several of these in N.C. also.) Again, here in Florida our AC is by far the biggest chunk of energy used. They now have available High efficiency Mini-split units that have built in inverters so you can plug the solar panel DIRECTLY. No need for additional inverters or permits from the electric company. When the sun goes down the unit is also connected to the grid and switches over as needed. Off the patio will be a roof holding solar panels. BTW... the solar panels are super cheap at about $150 per panel ( each 350 watt approx.) will require about 6 panels.

FYI...The Solar programs here installing panels on your roof and connecting to the grid will run you in excess of $50k !! Connecting 6 panels and the cost of the multi-head unit (depending on the size) has a cost of less than than $4k. It's an easy DIY project so my labor to install is not included in the price. (you DON'T need an electrician if your handy) Everything is installed to code.

As I'm sure you know, these units are heat pumps also. I had one recently installed in N.Y. state working perfectly. Using solar panels it even works during a power outage. (would require battery backup for night use) Not a problem.

Total cost as shown (not including labor) around $1000. Yes! PV panels really are that cheap.

The electric line goes straight to the mini-split. Easy breezy.

View attachment 398420

I have A. 100% covered by trees (which keeps my power bill way less than the folks across the street). My place looks like a field coming from the top via Google maps (until you go to the street view). From about 7 ft. above my roof, there is 50 or more ft. of tree foliage before you get to clear sky.
B. There are inside my house 3 doors, 2 bedroom and 1 bathroom. You can easily roll wheelchairs between both openings to the office, the 2 openings to the living room and the opening to the kitchen.
B. there is somebody home all day & night every day (either me, my wife, or both)
C. Around here, people have already (2 years ago) hacked into peoples NEST thermostat's turned them to high and locked them so that the settings could not be changed and the thermostats had to be removed and the people have had to sleep somewhere else until a new thermostat was installed.
I'll bet none of those people will ever own a Nest one again (& I won't ever own one either. I am happy with the one I have).

 

[Blumlein 88]

This only applies if you are connecting solar to the grid. Yes, it becomes ridiculously expensive. If you connect solar directly to the appliance in your home there is nothing to stop you. Not even a permit is needed. Just plug it in.

Not where I live. Even if I don't connect to the grid I have to pay fees monthly.

 

[blueone]

The electricity business in the US is about $500B in revenues annually and invests about $100B in capital annually - which they borrow to do. 80% of the electric utility revenue is for-profit investor-owned utilities. They usually return their profits as dividends to shareholders.

Irrelevant.

If you look at any utility balance sheet, for-profit or nonprofit, they have debt, and thus interest payments on their income/expense sheet. It is not unusual to have outstanding debt of half revenue or more.

Irrelevant.

In fact, BPA is a nonprofit. They borrow at preferential rates from the federal government. For-profits issue corporate bonds to borrow, and nonprofits issue municipal bonds or other bonds.

Incorrect. The BPA is not a non-profit (as in a 501c3 corporation), it is a government agency. It does not borrow from the federal government, it is the federal government. BPA employees are federal employees. Uniquely in the US government, the power marketing administrations were set-up to pay for themselves, as opposed to being funded by tax dollars, by selling power and transmission services at prices higher than it costs them to provide it to pay back federal outlays.

It is off-topic, but non-profits do not issue municipal bonds, only states and cities do. If a utility is owned by a state or a city, then the owning government can issue them.

The BPA and other federal power marketing agencies were set up by President Roosevelt to provide a nonprofit benchmark for power prices for people to see in comparison to for-profit electric utilities. I'm all for nonprofit electric, water, and sewer utilities. Others may differ on that. In my experience, nonprofit utilities are well managed, and better managed in many cases that for-profit utilities.

Not correct. The power marketing administrations were defined by Congress in support of various initiatives, from rural electrification to flood control and irrigation. The PMAs were directed by law to give preference to non-profit electric utilities, because members of Congress did not want the PMAs to just become vehicles for private utilities to exploit federal natural resources and taxpayer funded investments. Benchmarking for generation prices was not an objective. As for whether or not non-profit electrical providers are better, in my experience I've haven't noticed a difference. I was a non-profit utility customer in San Jose, CA, and had corporate utilities other times. I didn't notice a difference in service or my perception of pricing.

 

[Tinker]

Not where I live. Even if I don't connect to the grid I have to pay fees monthly.

Yes, even where you live, (provided you live in the U.S.) , you can connect solar panels directly to your AC unit without additional fees, permits or electrician costs. This can reduce your electric bill significantly. Todays solar trend is to put solar panels on your roof and then tie it in to the grid. This requires special permits, special equipment and licensed electricians. Elevates cost significantly and even then, you'll still have a minimum bill to pay. But that's NOT what I'm talking about.

 

[Blumlein 88]

Yes, even where you live, (provided you live in the U.S.) , you can connect solar panels directly to your AC unit without additional fees, permits or electrician costs. This can reduce your electric bill significantly. Todays solar trend is to put solar panels on your roof and then tie it in to the grid. This requires special permits, special equipment and licensed electricians. Elevates cost significantly and even then, you'll still have a minimum bill to pay. But that's NOT what I'm talking about.

Sorry, but you are uninformed about the situation.

 

[JustJones]

Yes, even where you live, (provided you live in the U.S.) , you can connect solar panels directly to your AC unit without additional fees, permits or electrician costs. This can reduce your electric bill significantly. Todays solar trend is to put solar panels on your roof and then tie it in to the grid. This requires special permits, special equipment and licensed electricians. Elevates cost significantly and even then, you'll still have a minimum bill to pay. But that's NOT what I'm talking about.

Not where I live. Permits are required even for non attached ground system.