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What does it take to succesfully transition to a green energy economy?

If I walked to work 7 miles each way, I have to eat extra food. The extra energy in that food, which won't include growing it getting it to me etc. will be around 50% more energy than I would use driving an electric car to work which also doesn't include ancillary costs.
Wait, what? I'm pretty sure that the additional caloric intake required by said walk would be pitifully low, which is why exercise alone as a means of losing excess weight is so difficult.

https://www.healthline.com/health/calories-burned-walking#increase-your-burn
 
Yet another political topic, which I had been warned was forbidden and which therefore cannot lead to anything.
Okay but saying the free market or subsidies is the way to go is kind hard to avoid in current state affairs with the green energy future.
 
Wait, what? I'm pretty sure that the additional caloric intake required by said walk would be pitifully low, which is why exercise alone as a means of losing excess weight is so difficult.

https://www.healthline.com/health/calories-burned-walking#increase-your-burn
Great, but I didn't live in a flat area. I'd be more on the hiker end of the spectrum. I used an estimate of 100 calories per mile. Not far off if up and down hills and sometimes carrying a few things.

Exercise for losing weight is one of those pablum pieces of BS. Eating appropriately controls weight.
 
I think many things, probably most things, are chosen for their need at the 5% of the time end of the spectrum. And not getting that 5% can be highly inconvenient often enough to be quite bothersome. Society has never been about optimum efficiency either. It is about enough efficiency. Some even complain that capitalism narrows your options to only what is economically most efficient. Limiting your choices in other ways as a consequence.

If I walked to work 7 miles each way, I have to eat extra food. The extra energy in that food, which won't include growing it getting it to me etc. will be around 50% more energy than I would use driving an electric car to work which also doesn't include ancillary costs. The savings would be several times that if I went at a slow speed equivalent to walking in the EV. It might get closer if I bike to work. It will be even more in favor of the EV car if I get a couple neighbors who work in the same place to car pool with me. Which one should be chosen? If I walk rather use an EV probably some workers don't have good paying jobs.

These things get ridiculous. The market of letting people choose their preference usually works better than someone trying to plan it out for everyone else. Civilizations usually fail when they reach a level of complexity such that the costs of keeping it going exceed the benefits that accrue. A more or less free market letting each person make the best choices they can for themselves is one of the more efficient ways to make decisions vs top down planning almost all the time. Trying to regulate your way out of this will only increase the complexity much faster than any benefits from doing so.
I think you can boil this down to two basic groups. One group has leadership making most of your decisions for you and the other group has leadership allowing some freedom of choice. If you are used to the first group you may have trouble understanding the second group and vice versa. Regional variations may work better that one solution for all.
 
1) because some people don't want to live wear they work. I for example I live on the edge of a small city, but where I work is in the middle of the city. It's about 8 miles each way.
2) Because the employee chooses where they live. The only time it's not on the employee, is when driving is part of the job. For example my father is in sales and is responsible for an area that covers several states. Thus, he gets a car allowance on top of his actual salary!
Personal choice is a fair reason, but I'm wary of increased job-related expenses which might effectively decrease one's income. Especially as cars are often purchased on credit, and are depreciating assets.
 
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You really did take this personally did you :) But I'm not surprised, there's always people that scream "but MY car!" when someone talks about minimizing car use.
But I'm not saying ban cars everywhere, they are great tools when used properly and I personally absolutely LOVE driving them (but I rarely do nowadays), but from my own observations I'd say that 85% of all travels by car is done alone and often in big SUVs, and I doubt very much that they have filled their entire car with things that makes that 2+ ton enormous semi offroad machine actually used to it's fullest potential. In other words, it IS extremely inefficient and therefor the use of them should be way less than what it is today.
And talking about forcing everyone else to do like you, as soon as I open my front door those cars are forced onto me. I have a quite big road (also know as the "big wall" or "wound") around 50m from my house and that constant noise is not nice at all, especially those louder cars and motorcycles can be really distracting. And unless I go out in the forest those cars really are ever present, passing quite close to me in high, deadly and loud speeds even though it might "only" a 50km/h zone.
At nights it gets quiet here though which is nice, but one single car can break that silence for over two minutes, ONE car with often ONE lonely person gets to make that much noise, it's actually quite insane to me. Now multiply that by 20 constantly during the day and the noise levels are so much louder than they really should be even outside the city where I live.
And going into cities it's even worse, their everyyywhere both driving and parked ones, they take up so EXTREMELY much space, both physically and audibly. I don't see the purpose of having them at all in cities when walking, biking and public transportation are better in almost every single way, except that they are more dangerous because at the moment the cities are filled with dangerous polluting cars ;\

And then the whole thing about that so called freedom and that people should be allowed to drive cars however they want to, but I disagree, we as a society and planet do not have the space or resources for that. This place has finite resources which makes it impossible for everyone to have some kind of "right" to have big luxuries cars, homes, things, whatever. If we continue like we are doing now we ARE doomed. And yes I've been talking about cars here, but there are of course many many other things as well that we ned to fix to get anywhere near something we can actually call "green".
But I guess my reason why I'm picking at cars here even though there are other things to talk about is because I do have some kind of personal beef with them. If I go outside they are almost constantly in my face, ears and mind, and seeing only one person in many of them probably going to the gym five minutes away (which in itself is so ironic) bothers me quite a lot. Handymen, busses, ambulances, delivery trucks etc on the other hand is more fine, they are using the tool in the correct way.


Uhm lol? It's cars and cars alone that causes many vehicles to sit in traffic.
But yeah I agree, cities has it's own problems as well which I did hint at in my post as well, their essentially big deserts, often very little vegetation and life, except for some humans, rats and some birds.

You really did take this personally did you :) But I'm not surprised, there's always people that scream "but MY car!" when someone talks about minimizing car use.
That is truly hilarious.
But I'm not saying ban cars everywhere, they are great tools when used properly and I personally absolutely LOVE driving them (but I rarely do nowadays), but from my own observations I'd say that 85% of all travels by car is done alone and often in big SUVs, and I doubt very much that they have filled their entire car with things that makes that 2+ ton enormous semi offroad machine actually used to it's fullest potential. In other words, it IS extremely inefficient and therefor the use of them should be way less than what it is today.

Do you pay for their fuel?. Insurance, Etc? If they want to waste their money, that is their prerogative, I think.

And talking about forcing everyone else to do like you, as soon as I open my front door those cars are forced onto me. I have a quite big road (also know as the "big wall" or "wound") around 50m from my house and that constant noise is not nice at all, especially those louder cars and motorcycles can be really distracting. And unless I go out in the forest those cars really are ever present, passing quite close to me in high, deadly and loud speeds even though it might "only" a 50km/h zone.

You can move, just as I did when the city encroached on me with too much of everything that I deem bad about cities. I was on the country edge of the suburbs, on a navigable waterway where no one could build behind me and on a peninsula with only one road in & out. Yet, the city expanded, took it over and living there became unbearable
.
At nights it gets quiet here though which is nice, but one single car can break that silence for over two minutes, ONE car with often ONE lonely person gets to make that much noise, it's actually quite insane to me. Now multiply that by 20 constantly during the day and the noise levels are so much louder than they really should be even outside the city where I live.
And going into cities it's even worse, their everyyywhere both driving and parked ones, they take up so EXTREMELY much space, both physically and audibly. I don't see the purpose of having them at all in cities when walking, biking and public transportation are better in almost every single way, except that they are more dangerous because at the moment the cities are filled with dangerous polluting cars ;\

And then the whole thing about that so called freedom and that people should be allowed to drive cars however they want to, but I disagree, we as a society and planet do not have the space or resources for that. This place has finite resources which makes it impossible for everyone to have some kind of "right" to have big luxuries cars, homes, things, whatever. If we continue like we are doing now we ARE doomed. And yes I've been talking about cars here, but there are of course many many other things as well that we ned to fix to get anywhere near something we can actually call "green".
If you stand the entire human population of earth shoulder to shoulder, they would take up roughly 437 square miles of space, which is approximately equivalent to 20.9 miles on each side, essentially fitting within the are of a medium sized city.

If you want quiet, I have lived on wonderful islands in the Western Pacific & the Indian Ocean and also, in the country.
Now, if you have less than 5 acres, you may here your rowdy neighbors stereo. But there is plenty of room for everyone.
But I guess my reason why I'm picking at cars here even though there are other things to talk about is because I do have some kind of personal beef with them. If I go outside they are almost constantly in my face, ears and mind, and seeing only one person in many of them probably going to the gym five minutes away (which in itself is so ironic) bothers me quite a lot. Handymen, busses, ambulances, delivery trucks etc on the other hand is more fine, they are using the tool in the correct way.


Uhm lol? It's cars and cars alone that causes many vehicles to sit in traffic.
But yeah I agree, cities has it's own problems as well which I did hint at in my post as well, their essentially big deserts, often very little vegetation and life, except for some humans, rats and some birds.

Nope, it's not cars at all. It's people choosing to live clustered up together in cities that are car centric.
And there, you also have another choice: there are some cities (not usually huge ones) that are not car centric. You could move to one.

I see people on horses much more than I do people driving cars. Perhaps you should buy an acre (better yet, 5 acres [three-5 acres is not so hard to take care of but more than 5 becomes a serious pain in the butt]) of land & build a house somewhere in the country. That will minimize your exposure to cars, trucks, etc. The constant use of horns (and the unfortunately needed sirens) that I hear in cities is one of the major things that I don't like about cities.

As to YOUR idea of proper use of a vehicle:
Well, I must be a rarity because I seem to fit right into your proper use algorithm: (but I know that I am not). Many use a car/truck as a fashion item. Or status (mine is more huge than yours). I use mine to do what I need to do.

& have different vehicles for different purposes (a larger truck when needed).
[I bought this 2004 model in December 2023 with 193K miles on it, it now has 197K miles on it]
{about 400 miles a month of hard work}).

And bought a 2024 Subaru CrossTrek to take my wife to the cabin we have on a river that can only be gotten to by trails requiring 4 wheel drive (& tow a 500 Lb. 15 ft. boat with a 15 HP motor there too). We also keep kayaks there.
Since March, we have put 6K miles on this vehicle.
(almost 860 miles a month because this is now also the grocery getter)

I have a 2000 Nissan Frontier 4 cylinder truck for lighter duty things & light towing (and also trips that usually involve 2500-3000 miles in a week, [I have 200K miles on it {approximately 700 miles a month, average]}).

This Nissan is now being driven a lot less, perhaps 100 miles a month, as the Subaru has a class 3 hitch setup and took the going to that cabin on the river duties away from the Nissan. In fact, I think that I am going to sell it.


But, at least once a week, my wife & I just like to get in a car and drive around, just to go to another area, go to a different restaurant 50-100 miles away and have a nice, relaxed, Saturday or/and Sunday drive.
Here is the big break with your algorithm of "proper" use:
And sometime I want hilly curvy rods because they are fun.
We have the money and are not being subsidized by anyone, I see no reason that anyone should complain about that.
& sometimes I just like to rent a car for a track day because it's fun.

Anyway, I think that we will just have to agree to disagree on this subject.
That does not lean that we can't agree on other things.

Thank you for your consideration.
EJ3
 
Great, but I didn't live in a flat area. I'd be more on the hiker end of the spectrum. I used an estimate of 100 calories per mile. Not far off if up and down hills and sometimes carrying a few things.

Exercise for losing weight is one of those pablum pieces of BS. Eating appropriately controls weight.
So, in your electric vehicle, you can drive an equivalent distance, using less than ~813 Watt-Hours? I'm no whiz at these things, but that sounds pretty awesome.

I used this calculator to convert kCal to kWh.
https://www.convertunits.com/from/kcal/to/kWh
 
Yes, yes but that is a government for the people and by the people but with all the consolidation, anti-competitive practices, data mining, lobbying much of it is for the corporations by the corporations. Many places outside out class the US with national energy, transportation,, health and education, also have far less poor people per capita. Don't me wrong our free enterprise system is model for the rest of the world and works for a more diverse population but some basic systems work better with common not for profit coordinated regulated structure and that is supported by facts of standard of living, health and education in many other countries.
And a lot of it that doesn't work well: doesn't do so due to political people who actually don't know (they have not been mechanics, civil engineers, pilots, harbor pilots or many other things that they try to regulate) what the heck that it is that they are doing and put in regulations that are a not well thought out kneejerk reaction to something. Then, when it goes bad, they try to fix it with another thought out knee jerk reaction to that. And that specific scenario has become a massive negative domino effect.
 
Wait, what? I'm pretty sure that the additional caloric intake required by said walk would be pitifully low, which is why exercise alone as a means of losing excess weight is so difficult.

https://www.healthline.com/health/calories-burned-walking#increase-your-burn

It depends how old you are, what your metabolism is like and how fast you are moving. For example I was a runner in high school and college, and at my peak I was averaging 4,500 to 5000 calories per day. My mom would regularly complain that keeping me feed was expensive.
 
So, in your electric vehicle, you can drive an equivalent distance, using less than ~813 Watt-Hours? I'm no whiz at these things, but that sounds pretty awesome.

I used this calculator to convert kCal to kWh.
https://www.convertunits.com/from/kcal/to/kWh
Maybe. I used the same conversion. I also had in mind a real route I used for work. You were never going more than 40 mph. EVs get much better range at slower speeds. I'm sure one at near walking speed wins. So yes, you would get I think better than that or about that much. I think most people would simply assume walking is an easy win on energy. It isn't.
 
And a lot of it that doesn't work well: doesn't do so due to political people who actually don't know (they have not been mechanics, civil engineers, pilots, harbor pilots or many other things that they try to regulate) what the heck that it is that they are doing and put in regulations that are a not well thought out kneejerk reaction to something. Then, when it goes bad, they try to fix it with another thought out knee jerk reaction to that. And that specific scenario has become a massive negative domino effect.
I don't think we are too far apart on what we see, but other countries trounce us in energy, transportation, health and education and somehow they are able to do it.
 
Great, but I didn't live in a flat area. I'd be more on the hiker end of the spectrum. I used an estimate of 100 calories per mile. Not far off if up and down hills and sometimes carrying a few things.

Exercise for losing weight is one of those pablum pieces of BS. Eating appropriately controls weight.
Ok, I get increasing the heart rate a bit for health purposes.
To loose weight, one must change the quantity (and most likely some of) what one eats.
No need to fast but instead of 5 double ice cream cones a day, switch to 4 single ice cream cones a day.
 
All cars do to an extent, as drag is proportional to velocity squared.
Not exactly. EVs are better the slower they go. ICE cars reach a speed low enough energy use per mile increases. Around 45 to 40 mph is good, go slower and mileage goes down.

OTOH, ICE cars can increase the mileage they get by at least 200% with proper driving techniques. However, I don't think people want that. It would make for some crazy traffic.
 
Maybe. I used the same conversion. I also had in mind a real route I used for work. You were never going more than 40 mph. EVs get much better range at slower speeds. I'm sure one at near walking speed wins. So yes, you would get I think better than that or about that much. I think most people would simply assume walking is an easy win on energy. It isn't.
What vehicle are you driving, and could you gain significant energy savings using another regular-production model with significantly lower mass?
 
I don't think we are too far apart on what we see, but other countries trounce us in energy, transportation, health and education and somehow they are able to do it.
Well, it has been going downhill (in my area) certainly since the early 70's, since South Carolina is usually so far behind on everything, the decline probably started somewhere else 20 years or more before. Maybe we need to look back & see what happened.
When our son was young (2005 or so at 12 years old) and had never yet been in the USA, being educated overseas, I asked my wife is she thought that we should bring him to the mainland for a better education. She said "Are you kidding me"? "Do you want to ruin his life"? I said "Ah, no, it was just a passing thought"? She said "Don't think like that."
I dropped the subject.
He is now a well paid and respected English teacher and soccer coach overseas and has only been in the United States mainland once (for three weeks), when my father passed away about 12 years ago. He came to help out my mother during this time (he had never met his grandmother or grandfather) and I did not push him to come. His mother, my wife, who had met my parents before, of course came from overseas with me, but our son was somewhere else and he showed up, too.
 
Were such things available to me without punishing tariffs, I could see myself wanting a Baojun Yep. Around my town, average driving speeds would be well within it's capabilities. Love how it resembles a scaled-down Suzuki Jimny, which itself looks a bit toylike. 1006 kg curb weight, aerodynamics of a brick :p
Baojun Yep.jpg
 
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What vehicle are you driving, and could you gain significant energy savings using another regular-production model with significantly lower mass?
So what? I could ride a little scooter getting 250 mpg. All the choices involve trade offs. I don't own the most efficient model I could. I have passed up models due to excessive size and cost of operation. I've made choices on a variety of factors that meet my need and wants as far as I could afford them. I generally prefer smaller vehicles. But it's not the sole criterion.
 
It depends how old you are, what your metabolism is like and how fast you are moving. For example I was a runner in high school and college, and at my peak I was averaging 4,500 to 5000 calories per day. My mom would regularly complain that keeping me feed was expensive.
I wasn't an athlete, but I always walked a lot, and sure did love a good buffet! Still do, though I've gotten pickier about the definition of "good".
 
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