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What does it take to succesfully transition to a green energy economy?

I'm sure the following will anger a few people, but some times the truth isn't pretty.

In a way electric cars are a lie.

Mining lithium and then using it to produce batteries for cars has a huge carbon footprint. In fact, when they roll of the assembly line, electric cars have a large carbon footprint than a regular car. Manufactures and members of the various governments like to say but but over the life of the car, the electric car the carbon footprint will be lower. However they don't tell you that requires you to be nice to the battery pack, lots of fast charging or discharging will drastically degrade the life of the pack. What type of plant is generating power in your area also plays a large part. solar, wind, hydro electric, & nuclear(fission) are far better than coal, natural gas, oil.




Imo, if you want Greener energy, than people need to push for fusion reactors. They don't/won't produce toxic waste, they don't generate greenhouse gases, and the fuel is widely available, and its more efficient than fission. Withy enough electric power, we could switch cars over to hydrogen combustion (generating the hydrogen via electrolysis), as it is also a very clean process.
However, there is quite a bit of research that shows that EVs have a lower environmental impact after only some three years. Also, in real life batteries don't degrade much. And as for the bateries themselves, the new generation of LFP batteries such as in the new and cheap Citroen ec3 EV performs better and is less toxic. The electricity that EVs use should obviously be as green as possible. Charging at home or work from solar is a good way to achieve that, particularly with a smart charger that uses electricity when it is abundant and cheap.
More generally, I would argue that the vast majority of the necessary technologies already exist and in a pretty mature form. What it needs is implementation, and a speedy one at that. Ask any economist, and he would tell you to combine pricing with regulation/legislation for where the price mechanism is insufficient to use. I am a great believer in the market, and both the US and Europe are essentially market economies, therefore none of this should be too hard. So what does the undergraduate economics textbook tell you? Put a price on negative externalities, and a bonus on positive ones. So put a tax on fossil fuel, and advertise a schedule of annual tax increases, for consumers and companies to prepare and achieve a managed and gradual changeover that does not create economic chaos. Similarly, introduce subsidies to prime the pump, and encourage the transition. Don't keep these subsidies for longer than necessary, and again be transparent about the schedule of annually declining subsidies. Those who dare to be pioneers will be rewarded, and those who wait will run a smaller risk but get a lower subsidy. And these are just a few suggestions from the economics textbook - there are many more such possibilities. We really don't have to wait for technologies that will not happen in our lifetime.
 
Put a price on negative externalities, and a bonus on positive ones. So put a tax on fossil fuel, and advertise a schedule of annual tax increases, for consumers and companies to prepare and achieve a managed and gradual changeover that does not create economic chaos. Similarly, introduce subsidies to prime the pump, and encourage the transition. Don't keep these subsidies for longer than necessary, and again be transparent about the schedule of annually declining subsidies. Those who dare to be pioneers will be rewarded, and those who wait will run a smaller risk but get a lower subsidy. And these are just a few suggestions from the economics textbook - there are many more such possibilities. We really don't have to wait for technologies that will not happen in our lifetime.

That might work with some segments of the population, but here in the states a none trivial number of people will very hostile about it, and will be doing everything they can to remove politicians who try and force it. Here in the states is a complex generational, and cultural issue.
 
.... I am a great believer in the market, and both the US and Europe are essentially market economies, therefore none of this should be too hard. So what does the undergraduate economics textbook tell you? Put a price on negative externalities, and a bonus on positive ones. So put a tax on fossil fuel, and advertise a schedule of annual tax increases, for consumers and companies to prepare and achieve a managed and gradual changeover that does not create economic chaos. Similarly, introduce subsidies to prime the pump, and encourage the transition. Don't keep these subsidies ...
Subsidies and arbitrary taxes are to market economy what production quotas are in a Communist economy, though. :) It's a way to force markets to go in a direction that market economy principles left to themselves don't support. :)

Part of me thinks EVs are a mechanism to force upgrades in a stagnant car industry, i.e. drive a profit cycle in the car industry. The environmental considerations may well be secondary. If one checks the sources of green gas emissions, transport clocks in at only 20% or so, and around 10% (I have read anywhere from 8-15%) of that are cars. I know we also have to consider factors like air quality in large urban areas and such. But all in all it is special interests working there, because it seems the 80% rest is not addressed as aggressively. Wonder if the Chevrons and BPs etc of the world have something to do with that... :-D
 
That might work with some segments of the population, but here in the states a none trivial number of people will very hostile about it, and will be doing everything they can to remove politicians who try and force it. Here in the states is a complex generational, and cultural issue.
I know, it has sadly become part of culture wars.
 
Subsidies are to market economy what production quotas are in a Communist economy, though
They use market principles by including externalities. There is nothing communist about it, just neo classical economics. Of course, they can be abused to slow down the demise of uneconomic and moribund industries, for example. But they can be very effective to prime the pump, to create the necessary scale.
 
I'm sure the following will anger a few people, but some times the truth isn't pretty.

In a way electric cars are a lie.

Mining lithium and then using it to produce batteries for cars has a huge carbon footprint. In fact, when they roll of the assembly line, electric cars have a large carbon footprint than a regular car. Manufactures and members of the various governments like to say but but over the life of the car, the electric car the carbon footprint will be lower. However they don't tell you that requires you to be nice to the battery pack, lots of fast charging or discharging will drastically degrade the life of the pack. What type of plant is generating power in your area also plays a large part. solar, wind, hydro electric, & nuclear(fission) are far better than coal, natural gas, oil.
Mining Lithium is bad, that's why the new 'Sodium Ion' battery is such a big game changer. Not only for cars but the entire electrical grid. Faster charging, last longer, longer range, cheaper to produce, recyclable.

It's not just batteries. The whole car making process has been revolutionized in China's EV plants.

For example, the entire front clip of the car that required over 100 components to be hand assembled is now 'printed' in a matter of seconds. Design changes are much easier/faster. The new China EV designs are popping out the dashboard in ONE piece that includes the vent eliminating many components and labor. Another change... No more stupid rear window wiper. The list of manufacturing improvements is enormous.

They are streamlining the whole process. American Detroit-area Automotive benchmarking company 'Caresoft' imported an $11,500 BYD 'Seagull' and took it apart for analysis and were surprised at not only how inexpensive but how good the quality was.

The BYD 'Seagull' sells for $11,500. 250 mile range. Would this car sell in America (or elsewhere) for that price as a local commuter car? You bet it would, tons of them. That's why it's an 'extinction level' event. It would make new cars available to those who couldn't afford them before. You'd think that's a good thing. But NO, you can't have one. Imposed tariffs will push the price up to well over $20 to $25k so the American companies can survive. Sorry, not cheap anymore. Who pays that tariff? Where does that money go?
 
But all in all it is special interests working there, because it seems the 80% rest is not addressed as aggressively. Wonder if he Chevrons and BPs etc of the world have something to do with that...
A good example would be the airline industry, with its tax exemptions. In Europe high speed trains have a hard time competing with budget air travel because airlines do not pay VAT or tax on fuel, whereas train companies do.
 
They use market principles by including externalities. There is nothing communist about it, just neo classical economics. ...
Ask Keynes, he was always accused of being a closet communist in economics. Mind you, it was necessary, and it worked well in certain situations. Which is a sign that market economy left to itself doesn't always follow the ideal path.
 
No more stupid rear window wiper. The list of manufacturing improvements is enormous.
Do you not drive in the rain much or something? My SUV for example would not be safe to drive in the rain without a rear windshield wiper blade!

The BYD 'Seagull' sells for $11,500. 250 mile range. Would this car sell in America (or elsewhere) for that price as a local commuter car? You bet it would, tons of them. That's why it's an 'extinction level' event. It would make new cars available to those who couldn't afford them before. You'd think that's a good thing. But NO, you can't have one. Imposed tariffs will push the price up to well over $20 to $25k so the American companies can survive. Sorry, not cheap anymore. Who pays that tariff? Where does that money go?
I think you had better stop here, or you might find yourself in a global political conversation, that the moderators won't like!
 
Imposed tariffs will push the price up to well over $20 to $25k so the American companies can survive.
Chinese companies are now opening plants in Europe. The new Citroen eC3 is Stellantis' answer to their challenge, with a cheap high quality EU made EV, with a superb ride quality and a price that is only a little more than the gasoline version. Expect a Jeep version in the US, I would think.
 
However, there is quite a bit of research that shows that EVs have a lower environmental impact after only some three years. Also, in real life batteries don't degrade much. And as for the bateries themselves, the new generation of LFP batteries such as in the new and cheap Citroen ec3 EV performs better and is less toxic. The electricity that EVs use should obviously be as green as possible. Charging at home or work from solar is a good way to achieve that, particularly with a smart charger that uses electricity when it is abundant and cheap.
More generally, I would argue that the vast majority of the necessary technologies already exist and in a pretty mature form. What it needs is implementation, and a speedy one at that. Ask any economist, and he would tell you to combine pricing with regulation/legislation for where the price mechanism is insufficient to use. I am a great believer in the market, and both the US and Europe are essentially market economies, therefore none of this should be too hard. So what does the undergraduate economics textbook tell you? Put a price on negative externalities, and a bonus on positive ones. So put a tax on fossil fuel, and advertise a schedule of annual tax increases, for consumers and companies to prepare and achieve a managed and gradual changeover that does not create economic chaos. Similarly, introduce subsidies to prime the pump, and encourage the transition. Don't keep these subsidies for longer than necessary, and again be transparent about the schedule of annually declining subsidies. Those who dare to be pioneers will be rewarded, and those who wait will run a smaller risk but get a lower subsidy. And these are just a few suggestions from the economics textbook - there are many more such possibilities. We really don't have to wait for technologies that will not happen in our lifetime.
Agree. In economics, externalities are costs that should included in the product, but are paid for by someone else. That creates a market distortion. I use the social cost of carbon, which is an escalating number, added to the market price, to provide a more honest view of the cost of the product. Changes in the energy mix are slow because it is a big system. I think we should move faster. Some people want no change or want to go backwards. The climate changes at a given CO2 concentration are essentially permanent. I think some people think if we level off emissions, the climate changes will go backwards, so we can delay leveling, then reducing, emissions.

Ultimately the insurance industry will be the great leveler. That can happen very quickly, much faster that individual investments in property ownership can change. The other great leveler is finance. No one is going to make a long term loan that does not maintain its value throughout the life of the loan, corporate bond, or municipal bond. Climate change is destroying a lot of real estate value. That is the major externality, another is health care cost.
 
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Ask Keynes, he was always accused of being a closet communist in economics. Mind you, it was necessary, and it worked well in certain situations. Which is a sign that market economy left to itself doesn't always follow the ideal path.
Keynes' contribution was, of course, to demonstrate that the principles of micro economics such as in Marschall do not necessarily apply at macro level. And indeed, he wasn't a communist at all. My first job was as a researcher in his old college in Cambridge (King's). I was on their investment committee, and I could see the smart systems he had put in place (he was an astute investor).
 
Ultimately the insurance industry will be the great leveler. That can happen very quickly, much faster that individual investments in property ownership can change
I just read that one of the Florida insurance companies is about to collapse under the cost of the last two hurricanes.
 
Keynes çontribution was, of course, to demonstrate that the principles of micro economics such as in Marschall do not necessarily apply at macro level. And indeed, he wasn't a communist at all. My first job was as a researcher in his old college in Cambridge (King's). I was on their investment committee, and I could see the smart systems he had put in place (he was an astute investor).
I love Keynes' work, a genius. And he actually hated Marxism, which he labeled "a misunderstanding of classic economics".
 
Politico from 12-05-2023, hardly a conservative media outlet:

"Congress at the urging of the Biden administration agreed in 2021 to spend $7.5 billion to build tens of thousands of electric vehicle chargers across the country, aiming to appease anxious drivers while tackling climate change.
Two years later, the program has yet to install a single charger.
States and the charger industry blame the delays mostly on the labyrinth of new contracting and performance requirements they have to navigate to receive federal funds. While federal officials have authorized more than $2 billion of the funds to be sent to states, fewer than half of states have even started to take bids from contractors to build the chargers — let alone begin construction."

Greed. Obscene greed at that. You remove that and have honest accounting - you can make changes in infrastructure happen. Green or otherwise.
The way it is currently, spoiler alert I'm a bit of a car nerd, 2.5 Million dollar and up exotic cars are sold out before you even get to see them. Private jets are having another stellar year in sales. That is not just Sheiks buying. Cost is being socialized and profits are being privatized, at a staggering pace. This is not so much a political issue, it is a societal issue.
One that spells disaster, if it is not reigned in. My 2 cents.
 
That's already changing. A rapidly increasing number of young people these days don't even have a car license. They'd rather scoot/one-wheel/uber etc around.
But an Uber burns more fuel for the same amount of travel than a personal car.
 
A huge problem with all of this is getting China and India to reduce their CO2 emissions.
No that will come with free solar energy going into PV collector or wind blades, into wires then into your home or factory. Pure economics, no half billion dollar oil platform or giant 400 meter tanker, no refineries and transportation middlemen.
 
But an Uber burns more fuel for the same amount of travel than a personal car.
Also bikes, Ubers, one Wheels Etc all become completely useless when you become an adult and have children and/or pets in a larger home out in the suburbs.

I've had several peers at work go through a dramatic lifestyle change once they got married and had kids.
 
Do you not drive in the rain much or something? My SUV for example would not be safe to drive in the rain without a rear windshield wiper blade!


I think you had better stop here, or you might find yourself in a global political conversation, that the moderators won't like!
I drive in the rain just not backwards. I go forward I have wipers. You're aware sedans don't have rear wipers? They're not safe? Why is it exclusive for SUV's to have them?
 
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