What does it take to make a speaker sound good in a mostly untreated living room

[Halbknapp]

The question upfront: what deviation from linear does it take to sound best in little treated European (brick wall) living rooms?

Most good measuring speakers sound bad (or ok at best) in my mostly untreated living room space. Among the tested are Ascilab C6B, Genelec 8341, Neumann KH150, Heissmann DXT-Mon 182.

The will sound much better in a more treated space (my home cinema space for example).

However some German engineerd kits: Heissmann Cinetor Evo (slightly adapted) and Donhighend/Alexander Gresler Little yellow cab both sound superb in the same space.
EDIT: Attached Dataset and Directivity Images of the Cinetor EVO with ring Radiator that we think sounds great.

I have a 8m x 5m living room of which half is somewhat free space (5m deep x 4m wide), speakers 4m away. However the speakers sound similar in a similar treated living room of a fellow audio enthusiast friend where the loom layout and speaker position is untreated.

 

[Halbknapp]

Based on my measurements and observations what I assume that could help is:

Early roloff or incomplete Baffle Step compensation to counter muddiness from upper bass standing waves/slow decay

Slight crossover based sound power dip in the 1,5 to 2,5 kHz region (or on axis dip if coaxial). Sounds more natural to me - this may be more up to taste but I don't feel the need in a better treated environment so may have to do with reflections?

Slightly rising and smooth directivity.

 

[DVDdoug]

Maybe directivity (off-axis response).

But as a rule, a better speaker usually sounds better than a bad speaker in ANY room.

If you have a pair of the German speakers and one of the others you can get a measurement mic and REW to measure the differences (but that won't tell you how much of the difference is due to directivity and how much is something else.

in little treated European (brick wall) living rooms?

Small rooms have problems in the bass range and the only "treatment" that helps is bass traps. EQ helps but it can't fix everything. Speaker placement (or subwoofer placement) can make a difference as well as multiple subs.

Untreated rooms aren't necessarily terrible.

Most walls are hard and acoustically reflective and brick isn't that much different from anything else. Rugs/carpet and "soft" furniture make a BIG difference compared to an empty room with 4 hard walls and a hard floor and ceiling. Hard objects in the room will also help to break-up the standing waves but soft things absorb more sound.

 

[Hear Here]

The main considerations are type of speaker to suit the room (not necessarily conventional box), well chosen make and model (get home demos), careful placement and setting up and (as others have said) pay attention to room furnishings. Not necessarily "treatment" but things that most well-furnished rooms will have anyway - soft furnishing, carpets, curtains, etc. You should get good sound if the speakers are good. The brands you mention may or may not be suitable. Speakers designed for pro studios are often not good in the home - they are intended for different purposes. I am not familiar with the brands you mention, so I suspect they are not primarily designed for home use - but perhaps I've lived a sheltered life - German speaker-wise!

 

[Purité Audio]

If those two speakers sound ‘superb’ in the same space why not just use those?
Keith

 

[Daverz]

The question upfront: what deviation from linear does it take to sound best in little treated European (brick wall) living rooms?

Perhaps narrower dispersion? Depends on what "sound bad" means. Too bright? Too thumpy?

 

[Halbknapp]

If those two speakers sound ‘superb’ in the same space why not just use those?
Keith

The man reason is that those two speakers use rather inexpensive drivers (one is scanspeak dicsovery series for example) and are not mine. If i know what the secret souce is i could replicate it and build a set of speakers that sound similar but are more capable.

 

[Halbknapp]

Perhaps narrower dispersion? Depends on what "sound bad" means. Too bright? Too thumpy?

Bad in this case means not enjoyable.

Neumann KH150 sounded very smooth but too dark. Genelec 8341 very live but far too bright and little bass. Ascilab C6B neutral but a bit boxy and tinny.
All of them could be EQed to sound better. But even with EQ they did not sound as good as those other speakers out of the box. However it seems i dont have the right target for EQ or room correction.

 

[Purité Audio]

I still can’t see the point of your posting unless you have some agenda promoting those two unknown speakers.
Keith

 

[Arindal]

what deviation from linear does it take to sound best in little treated European (brick wall) living rooms?

Would say it depends on the room in question, but more or less constant, higher directivity index over vast frequency bands seems to be helpful to reduce the walls´ influence. I don't see any point in deviating from linearity here, as that would not help countering the influence of the room, you would just end up with kinked frequency response both of the direct and the indirect sound.

The polar plot examples you have shown seem to exhibit narrower radiation pattern yet pretty uneven one.

Neumann KH150 sounded very smooth but too dark. Genelec 8341 very live but far too bright and little bass.

Try a speaker with higher yet more constant directivity index than Neumann, for example some cardioid model. Dutch&Dutch 8c is a pretty capable unit, for example. If that is not sufficient, a line source or big horn might do the job better than some DIY models.

But even with EQ they did not sound as good as those other speakers out of the box.

That is to be expected, if reflected sound is dominating in the room due to broad and uneven radiation pattern.

 

[Halbknapp]

I still can’t see the point of your posting unless you have some agenda promoting those two unknown speakers.
Keith

I want to see if someone has hints or recommendations for frequency response and directivity target settings (that are more then flat line on axis and have some smooth unknown directivity) that may show benefits in a typical living room. I would use that info to EQ existing speakers or DIY better speakers.

 

[Daverz]

Bad in this case means not enjoyable.

Neumann KH150 sounded very smooth but too dark. Genelec 8341 very live but far too bright and little bass. Ascilab C6B neutral but a bit boxy and tinny.
All of them could be EQed to sound better. But even with EQ they did not sound as good as those other speakers out of the box. However it seems i dont have the right target for EQ or room correction.

The Cinetor's directivity narrows up pretty steeply with frequency, while the C6B has nearly constant directivity in the treble. I suppose you could look for a directivity with a slope similar to the Cinetor.

 

[Halbknapp]

Would say it depends on the room in question, but more or less constant, higher directivity index over vast frequency bands seems to be helpful to reduce the walls´ influence. I don't see any point in deviating from linearity here, as that would not help countering the influence of the room, you would just end up with kinked frequency response both of the direct and the indirect sound.

The polar plot examples you have shown seem to exhibit narrower radiation pattern yet pretty uneven one.

Try a speaker with higher yet more constant directivity index than Neumann, for example some cardioid model. Dutch&Dutch 8c is a pretty capable unit, for example. If that is not sufficient, a line source or big horn might do the job better than some DIY models.

That is to be expected, if reflected sound is dominating in the room due to broad and uneven radiation pattern.

thanks, i now have a DIY Dutch and Dutch 8C Clone that sounds great in this room (original 8c sure would be even better). A big horn speaker may also be a good idea. But i was shocked that a smallish 2 way bookshelf also souded great when i thought its the room and i need something like Cardioid or huge speakers.

 

[JohnnyAudio]

Put headphones on and close eyes.