What Does DSEE HX AI / DSEE Ultimate / DSEE Extreme Do?

[ThatM1key]

Your graphs are pretty hard to read because the scales are different. However, subjectively, before even knowing what DSEE HX was (I thought it was DSD resampling; but that's a different thing entirely) I came to the same conclusion. On lossless files I couldn't tell. On lossy files (most of my library!) it's a noticeable improvement. I didn't get to try DSEE HX vs "normal" SRC/upsampling as might be done by many DACs today.

I wish Spek had a scale resize option, I don't know any other tool that resizes scales. I always wondered what DSEE Ultimate would sound like versus standard DSEE HX.

I have a Sony UBP-x800 that supports DSEE HX and I think I can run Spotify through it, so I might try that later by hearing. The Sony UDP-x800 has a digital coaxial out but my old Creative SB Titanium HD only supports optical/spdif in, so I cannot test that. Although my Sony STR-DN1080 also supports DSEE HX and has RCA out, I don't want to unplug all of it, just for some tests.

 

[APPLEKID]

I am very interesting about DSEE HX AI, so I done some rough test.

I use foobar2000 to generate specific frequency, and feed it to zx300 with MrWalkman firmware in order to obtain DSEE HX AI. Sorry about I didn't use decent analysis software and hardware. Audicity was applied to record the output signal by using mic input of mb.

frequencies used below: 20–30–40–50–60–70–80–90–100–200–300–400–500–600–700–800–900–1000–2000–3000–4000–5000–6000–7000–8000–9000–10000–12000–14000–16000–18000–20000–22000

44.1 kHz /16 bit, DSEE HX AI OFF

44.1 kHz / 16 bit, DSEE HX AI ON

44.1 kHz / 24 bit, DSEE HX AI ON

44.1 kHz / 32 bit, DSEE HX AI ON

48 kHz / 16 bit, DSEE HX AI OFF

48 kHz / 16 bit, DSEE HX AI ON

48 kHz / 24 bit, DSEE HX AI ON

48 kHz / 32 bit, DSEE HX AI ON

No significant trace of process was found with 88.2 kHz or higher.

Then, I tried to focus on the frequency between 500 - 22000 Hz.
frequencies used below: 500–1000–2000–3000–4000–5000–6000–7000–8000–9000–10000. After 10000 Hz, the interval is 100 Hz, until to 22000 Hz

44.1 kHz / 16 bit, DSEE HX ON, 500 - 22000

48 kHz / 16 bit, DSEE HX AI ON, 500 - 22000

Here is my finding. DSEE HX AI seems has two different process mode, 44.1 kHz mode and 48 kHz mode. The process intensity of DSEE HX AI can be controlled by bit depth: 16 bit ≒ 24 bit > 32 bit.
I don't think DSEE HX is a normal upsampling method. It does more complicate than normal resampler. Personally, I like the DSEE HX Strings more than DSEE HX AI. DSEE HX Strings could make more separation feeling, while DSEE HX AI makes a little bit muddy. In my opinion, DSEE HX is more like a EQ.

 

[Saidera]

Incredible effort everyone! Nice to see various takes on this now pretty ageing DSP!

 

[ThatM1key]

This idea was on my mind for a while, what does the DSEE HX do on my Sony UBP-X800? In todays testing, that's what were gonna find out. I was initially gonna use my "Creative SoundBlaster Titanium HD" but Windows thinks nothing is attached and the BIOS is too barebones to tell if something is in the slot, although there a optical glow which means its alive still. What I used instead was my motherboards line in which uses the "Realtek ALC887" chip. Today's song will be using is "Nirvana - Lithium".

So here's the recording chain:
Sony UBP-X800 [Digital Coaxial Out] --> Topping E30 [Digital Coaxial In, Analog Out] --> Yamaha A-S301 [CD Analog In, Analog Out] (Direct Mode On) --> Motherboard [Line In]

For reference the Sony UBP-X800 (when DSEE HX is On), outputs 44.1khz content as "88.2khz" & 48khz content as "96khz". I do not know what the bit depth that it outputs.

Audacity:
Audiohost: WASAPI
Sampling: 96khz 24bit (For DSEE HX On), 44.1khz 16bit (For DSEE HX Off). [Realtek can't do 88.2khz only 96khz]
Real-Time Conversion/High-Quality Conversion: High Quality, No Dithering
Volume: 30%

Spotify Connect (Audio Quality: Very High):
DSEE HX Off:

DSEE HX On:

MFSL Version (FLAC) (Thumb drive):
DSEE HX Off:

DSEE HX On:

Conclusion:
I personally didn't think the Sony UBP-X800's DSEE HX would do anything when it doubled the frequency, but it proved me wrong. I'm very certain the Sony UBP-X800's DSEE HX is different from Sony Music Center PC's DSEE HX. The thing I don't know about the Sony UBP-X800's DSEE HX is what bit depth it does, the manual doesn't say and my Topping E30 doesn't show it. I'm pretty glad I can run Spotify through it, I wish the Sony Music Center PC had it.

 

[ThatM1key]

What I'm probably gonna test next is my Sony STR-DN1080's DSEE HX. I would say its the saddest way to do DSEE HX, especially for a $700 USD MSRP Product. Instead of being a simple toggle switch like on the Sony UBP-X800, its hidden as a ""DSP"" sound effect option. Even though it says it supports a max of 2-Channel 48khz, it'll only do that with files, Bluetooth & Spotify. I felt like Sony could've at least had the option to enable it on the RCA inputs and 2-channel digital inputs (like HDMI, SPDIF and Coaxial), what a waste. In the manual it does talk about DSEE HX working with "CDs" but I think the idea was scrapped later on. I initially wanted to use my Pioneer ct-w606dr (Which has the best NR system) with DSEE HX. As a "DSP" option, it doesn't tell you what it does. Does it double frequency like the Sony UBP-X800 or does it do it the "Poor Man's" way like Sony Music Center for PC. Since the Sony UBP-X800 has the toggleable DSEE HX, you could actually use it with Movies since you know, movies use 48khz soundtracks.

What do I predict? I predict this probably is the worst way to enjoy DSEE HX (Especially for a $700 USD initial asking price). I'm very certain its not that good as the Sony UBP-X800's. If Sony allowed it to be used with the inputs on the back, then I wouldn't be so mad about it being a hidden DSP. At least you could probably use LDAC with it. But knows, maybe it's actually good despite looking bare-bones, after all its claims to upscale sources up to 192khz/24bit.

Source: https://helpguide.sony.net/ha/strdn108/v1/en/contents/TP0001272312.html

I wish Sony would've made newer receivers but there busy sucking Bose's ideology c0ck. Instead of making good new music receivers & amps for barely any profit, they would rather try to make crap speakers sound better than what they are and make huge profits because rich people buying these kinds of products are too stupid to know better. I myself know damn well the Sony SSCS5 would beat the lazy cheaply made high priced HT-A9 system.

Do I hate Sony? No I want them to make great products. There just currently going after the money, like the PS5. You can't use your own PS4 controllers, No "Xbox Play Anywhere" equivalent, No free graphical upgrades if you bought a new game for PS4 and want to play the PS5 version.

 

[Saidera]

Recently a new Walkman was released: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/sony-announces-new-walkman-4200.30787/
Also new 2022 Xperia phones which support 360 Reality Audio and 360 Reality Audio Upmix for stereoscopic enhancement of normal stereo sound sources. In 2021 I remember their Xperia phones supported 360 Reality Audio (360RA), which could be played through the inbuilt speakers of the phone (defeats the purpose though!). It also featured 360 Spatial Sound, which converts ordinary stereo sound sources into a three-dimensional sound field. 360 Reality Audio Upmix is an update on the old 360 Spatial Sound. DSEE Ultimate has been 'improved' for CD files, whatever that means.

 

[ThatM1key]

So basically 360 Reality Audio is really trying to compete with Dolby Atmos.

 

[Saidera]

Measurements & Review of Sony NW-WM1ZM2 Walkman Signature Series Music Player - L7Audiolab

便携设备 前阵子测过那台著名的索六万，当时的测量结果让我掉了下巴，不禁惊叹“技术的Sony"。之所以有这种反应是因为之前包括我测量的ZX300和ASR测的黑砖一代都挺”平平无奇“的。而这次一位大佬给我寄了Sony最新的”金砖二代“ NW-WM1ZM2

www.l7audiolab.com

Not impressive enough but there was a pic titled 'DSEE的效果：'

Can someone explain why DSEE Ultimate seems to be applying right across the spectrum at a much higher sound level?

https://cdn.l7audiolab.com/wp-content/uploads/2022/05/DSEE.jpg

Also note the Sony Vinyl Processor measurements which are lauded as being accurate.

 

[Saidera]

Recently Sony released their 30 mm driver XM5 wireless headphones, with a design revamp (I prefer XM4's design and 40 mm drivers - a size standard among Sony, audio-technica, Yamaha monitor headphones). Hopefully XM5 no longer plays back terribly like XM4 when connected via 3.5 mm jack (analog not wireless). Much has changed+improved in terms of driver and housing design and wireless/NC capabilities, they say. It still comes with DSEE Extreme, and recently an ad video was released suggesting that users combine XM5 with Xperia 1 IV - if via wireless, it would be DSEE Ultimate ->LDAC -> DSEE Extreme, I think. You would have DSEE processing occurring twice. If XM5 is used via 3.5 mm jack, it would be DSEE Ultimate only.

 

[ThatM1key]

I still wish Sony would make AVRs to kick Denon's ass.

 

[GXAlan]

I still wish Sony would make AVRs to kick Denon's ass.

The entry level STR-ZA1100es actually did pretty well and Sony has a good track record with HDMI compatibility.

It does look like the Sony Malaysia plant that handles most of the AVR and audio gear closed down during COVID and they decided to abandon the market.

The TA-A1ES is probably a hidden bargain as is the STR-ZA5000es if you don’t need eARC. The HT-A9 technology in an AVR would have been impressive!

 

[lexym]

Found this post and just wanna ask, does SMC on android bypass the android sampling rate when using usb mode? Since I'm using a dongle DAC and I'm using DSEE HX for it's only available in usb mode. Cause if not I guess I'll just go back to using UAPP.

 

[Saidera]

That's tricky. Music Center for PC doesn't play native DSD, whereas the smartphone app does (untested). Based on my testing I know that the phone app (when set to use the phone's internal DAC and audio settings - no DSEE HX possible) enforces sample rates like ASIO or WASAPI does. For USB dongles you will need to get a dongle with an OLED screen which shows what sample rate is being used - as I have no such dongle, I can't answer your question affirmatively.

Thanks for dropping in! Welcome aboard @lexym

 

[lexym]

Thanks for the welcome! I'm glad to drop by here since I was looking for more information on DSEE HX and found this and helped a lot on understanding how it works.
And Yeah SMC on android has little info and I was quite interested so I tried going around searching on forums and reddit but found nothing. Thanks for giving me some information on how the app works, never knew it uses ASIO/WASAPI. Might test it myself I guess if there aren't anyone who've tried.

 

[Saidera]

Just wanted to clarify that Android does not have ASIO/WASAPI, and doesn't appear to have any other equivalent system in place. But individual apps can sort of act like they are using an audio device exclusively.

 

[xpistofep]

I still wish Sony would make AVRs to kick Denon's ass.

Your wish has been granted ...

Sony Premium Home Entertainment - Receivers

sonypremiumhome.com

 

[xpistofep]

The entry level STR-ZA1100es actually did pretty well and Sony has a good track record with HDMI compatibility.

It does look like the Sony Malaysia plant that handles most of the AVR and audio gear closed down during COVID and they decided to abandon the market.

The TA-A1ES is probably a hidden bargain as is the STR-ZA5000es if you don’t need eARC. The HT-A9 technology in an AVR would have been impressive!

I have the ZA5000ES and its amazing ... now I have to figure out when I need the AZ5000ES?

Sony Premium Home Entertainment - Receivers

sonypremiumhome.com

 

[GXAlan]

Sony TA-ZH1ES: A DAC/Headphone Amp with a Sonic Signature?

Sony TA-ZH1ES: A DAC/Headphone Amp with a Sonic Signature? Stop. やめる. Halt. Arrêt. You probably shouldn’t read the rest of this post, it's triggering. There's a lot of speculation even though there are a good amount of measurements too. If you're looking for a transparent DAC/headphone...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Ran some DSEE HX non-AI measurements there. This has the DSEE HX variants which was an intermediate step to the full AI version that automatically switches between the algorithms.