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What Does 120 dB SINAD Really Taste Like?

cagisk

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Apr 9, 2024
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Hey folks,

Staring at SINAD numbers all the time - but what does a jump from, say, 75 dB to a stunning 120 dB truly mean in terms of "purity"? It can be tough to get an intuitive handle on it. After some thought and number-crunching (based on actual measured figures, not just guesswork!), I've been exploring a "salty water" analogy that might help make these abstract figures a bit more...tasty? Or perhaps, untasty!

The basic idea is simple: think of unwanted noise and distortion (the "NAD" in SINAD) as a tiny bit of salt. Pure water is your perfect "Signal." The less salt, the "purer" the water, and the higher the SINAD. Our unit of "impurity" will be a single, average grain of table salt, which has a measured mass of about 0.06 milligrams (mg) – it's tiny!

So, let's see what different "audio quality levels" might taste like.

Imagine you've managed to isolate that single grain of salt. If you dissolved it in just 3 tiny drops of pure water (that’s about 0.16 mL), you'd have a concentration of roughly 375 milligrams of salt per Liter (mg/L). That’s noticeably salty for sure! In our analogy, this kind of obvious "impurity" is like a lower SINAD score, say around 61 dB, where the flaws in the audio are pretty apparent.

But what if we start diluting it? Take a fresh single grain of salt and dissolve it in about 16 drops of pure water (around 0.79 mL). Now, the salt concentration is much lower, about 76 mg/L. This is interesting because it’s right at the lower edge of reported taste thresholds for very sensitive individuals. For our analogy, we’ll peg this level of "just barely detectable" impurity to a ~75 dB SINAD. This is our reference point: an audio imperfection that a keen listener might just begin to sense under ideal conditions.

Want to try this yourself?

This is where it gets fun and you can use your own senses. Isolating a single, average grain of table salt can be a bit fiddly, but aim for that! Then:
  1. In one tiny, clean container (like a bottle cap), dissolve that single grain in just 3 drops of distilled or very pure water.
  2. In another, dissolve a fresh single grain in 16 drops of pure water.
  3. For a third test, dissolve a fresh single grain in a full standard US cup (about 240 mL or 8 fluid ounces) of pure water.
Now, taste them carefully (rinse your mouth with plain water between tastes!). Can you easily tell the 3-drop solution is salty? What about the 16-drop one – can you (or a friend, in a blind test!) reliably pick it out from plain water? And that full cup with one grain? Any hint of salt at all? It’s a great way to explore your own sensory limits!

Scaling Up: What Do "Cleaner" High SINADs Taste Like?
Back to our analogy. In audio, a 20 dB increase in SINAD means the "bad stuff" (our salt) is 10 times less prominent.

If we take our ~75 dB "just barely detectable" level (1 grain in 16 drops) as a starting point:
  • To reach a ~100 dB SINAD equivalent (a 25 dB improvement, making the "salt" about 18 times less concentrated), that single grain would need to be in about 14 mL of water (almost 3 US teaspoons). The original saltiness is now diluted to about 4.3 mg/L – far below almost anyone's taste threshold. This mirrors how 100 dB SINAD audio is generally perceived as very clean and transparent.
  • To get to ~120 dB SINAD (a 45 dB improvement from 75 dB, making the "salt" about 178 times less concentrated), that single grain would be in roughly 140 mL of water (a bit more than half a standard US cup). The "salt" here is at a vanishingly low concentration of ~0.43 mg/L. This is truly top-tier audio performance, exceptionally "pure."
The "Grain of Salt in a Swimming Pool"
I heard extreme claims like "120 dB SINAD is like a grain of salt in an Olympic swimming pool!" It’s used to emphasize utter imperceptibility. But is it accurate? Not even close.That single 0.06 mg grain of salt in a typical backyard swimming pool (say, 20,000 gallons or ~75,000 Liters) creates an unimaginably dilute solution. On our SINAD analogy scale, this would actually be equivalent to something around 230-240 dB SINAD! So, while 120 dB is fantastic, the swimming pool comparison is a huge exaggeration for that particular SINAD value.

Perception, Belief, and that "Cup of Water" Test
It's fascinating how these analogies are used. People might use the "swimming pool" hyperbole to convince you that flaws in 120 dB gear are impossible to hear. Conversely, remember that third test I suggested: one grain of salt in a full cup of water? The dilution there (about 0.25 mg/L of salt) actually aligns with a ~125 dB SINAD equivalent in our analogy. But as you probably found if you tried it, tasting that salt is highly improbable (wink wink); it's hundreds of times below typical, verified human taste thresholds. It just goes to show how suggestion and expectation can play with our perception!

Why This Salty Story (Sort of) Works
Our senses, whether hearing or taste, tend to notice proportional changes rather than absolute linear ones. The decibel scale itself is built on this logarithmic principle. So, while linking a specific taste threshold (1 grain in 16 drops) to a specific SINAD value (75 dB) is a choice we made for this analogy, the scaling from there (e.g., 10 times less saltiness for every 20 dB SINAD improvement) uses that same solid, perception-based logic. The salt grain and drop counts are real, calculated ways to experience these vast ratios of purity.

In any case, I am glad I now have an alternative non-audio scale for intuition.
 
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What Does 120 dB SINAD Really Taste Like?
Tastes great, every morning. :cool:

1747710685547.png



JSmith
 
Casandra Cillian, in her former role in the Librarians TV series used to visualize (holography type) formulas and equations projected ahead of her.
Your 'salt-solutions' analogy is a great one.
But I must ask: Is a decade (10X) change in a solution; a 10dB or 20dB change?

BTW: I use my internal 'string-cheese' theory; where measurements results, turn into data points, that turn into stringy lines, in an x/y/z space. :facepalm:
 
While I'm not 100% sure on the math here, (61dB SINAD is not actually super obvious in some contexts) I love these types of analogy, and I think it works if you don't push it too hard. It's helpful to think about decibels in non-audio contexts because we don't usually realize just how huge the differences are between signals when expressed in decibels.

I think where I get hung up here is... if water is the flavor analogy to audio silence, then to take the masking effect of music into account, shouldn't we be thinking about the taste-threshold in food with flavor of its own?

Anyway, I did a somewhat similar comparison (size instead of salt concentration) here once, it didn't exactly change the world, but I had fun doing it.

 
What Does 120 dB SINAD Really Taste Like?

Not much.

AI calculates this for me:

1 picogram of salt in 1 liter of pure water gives a -120dB concentration.

one grain of salt is approximately 17.28 million picograms

I wonder if it got this right.
 
It tastes as nothing as 13dB under the right context. https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~malcolm/13dB_Miracle/

There is a range in electronic gear where it is just that bland. The goal is to sit in that range during playback. The lower the overall contribution of each piece of gear, the easier it is to achieve that nothingness. For the most part, with modern gear, this requires no effort.

The circumstances in which things start to matter are: you are recording in a quiet setting with sensitive microphones, you have unusually sensitive IEMs or headphones, you have sensitive hornspeakers, either at home (rare) or in a PA system (common)., or you are linking long chains of analog electronics together, as in broadcasting or older studios.

That said, I only buy gear that is backed by measurements and only good measurements. Not because it changes what I hear, but because it reflects the work put into the product. It is hard to get numbers that low.
 
but what does a jump from, say, 75 dB to a stunning 120 dB truly mean in terms of "purity"?
Here's an experiment you might find enlightening...

Open a file in Audacity. Turn up the volume as loud as you like to listen. Run the Amplify effect at -10dB (to attenuate rather than amplify) and keep repeating in 10dB steps until you hear nothing, or nothing but analog background noise.
 
Imagine you've managed to isolate that single grain of salt. If you dissolved it in just 3 tiny drops of pure water (that’s about 0.16 mL), you'd have a concentration of roughly 375 milligrams of salt per Liter (mg/L). That’s noticeably salty for sure! In our analogy, this kind of obvious "impurity" is like a lower SINAD score, say around 61 dB, where the flaws in the audio are pretty apparent.

How did you correlate 375mg/L salt concentration to 61dB SINAD?

I have always thought of SINAD like this:

1748494427135.png


All the numbers in italics are relative to the listening level. So if the listening level was 100dB, the noise floor of vinyl would be 70dB, and so on.
 
It’s a neat idea, but all sorts of confounding factors come into play.

In audio, masking effects make a huge difference. The salt detection analogy is closer to a threshold of perception of sound. Not threshold of detection of a contaminant. Perhaps a better analogy would be detection of salt in say a sugar solution. Then we compare concentrations of salt versus sugar, not versus the water. Taste is weird, and at low concentrations salt will do strange things to how we perceive other things before we identify actual saltiness. Which isn’t totally different to audio either.

Or how about we use Bitrex instead of salt? That could be fun, for various values of “fun”.
 
Not much.

AI calculates this for me:

1 picogram of salt in 1 liter of pure water gives a -120dB concentration.

Glad to hear you are not trying to judge distortion or noisefloor with your tongue.

We could conclude from this that the dynamic range of the human ear from physics point of view is pretty special compared to tongue, and even the eyes.
 
1. I picked 61DB as an arbitrary level where distortion will be obvious to an average person - might be much lower.
2. Regarding to masking effects, I think "salt tasting" will behave very similarly - minerals etc. in the water would significantly impact someone's to judge salt. Also, interestingly, pure water does not taste good. ;)
3. As it related to DR, I was always a bit confused about this - I think the relevant metric is not the objective DR itself, but DR/sensitivity. Human nose/tongue are sensitive to some chemicals in their very dilute forms.

Intention here is not to over-stretch the analogy, but I do believe (and there is evidence) human senses operate similarly. So in that sense, it is not surprising these analogies work to a certain extent.
 
For length:

If 1 millimeter is -120dB, then 0dB = 1 kilometer

If 1 inch is -120dB, then 0dB = 15.8 miles

Maybe it is time to bump The Shoutometer
 
sinad tastes like pepsi max it always hits the dB spot
 
being all equal, if you ask me to choose between a cup of 90 SINAD vs a 120 SINAD I would choose 120, why not?;)
 
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