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What do you think of this video.

andreasmaaan

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Typical nonsense.

The example "experts" he lists at around 9:00 might be experts at designing audio equipment, but they are also salespeople.

More importantly, though, they are purporting to make "expert" claims about what/how humans hear, which is not within their domain of expertise at all.

EDIT: the problem is not per se that these claims fall outside their domains of expertise, but more specifically that they conflict with the scientific findings of true experts in the field.
 
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solderdude

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spherical earth acceptance = acceptance cables sound different ?
Yes, for some speakers it is not wise to use lamp cord. It is measurable and verifiable in blind listening tests.
Acceptance of science is the culprit here and believe in the unknown signal.
Pain period is when putting on the Ultrasone Edition 10 (see Tyll's vid for proof)

Reclockers can help with poorly designed DAC's. No mystery there. Also this needs to be verified with properly conducted blind tests and not sighted tests. Oh right... we have an unknown 'sense' for this. It's called 'knowing/bias' and must not take that out of the equation.

Yes Pluto... a planet or not ? Very audiophile oh it is..

Rob ... yes can hear -300dB or so (just joking -150dB he claims) ... using his x-th sense
Oh ... audiophile internet switches, chakra stones ...

Expectation bias not working as expected so... ones and zeros.
 
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Blumlein 88

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Don't listen to Darko. Just don't. There are so many things wrong in this video. Of course each can be painstakingly answered. You run into the bullshit asymmetry problem.

Alberto Brandolini — 'The amount of energy necessary to refute bullshit is an order of magnitude bigger than to produce it.'

With Darko, your default position can simply be he is a spreader of bullshit.

Just to pick one of his dumber proclamations. That we were told in the 80's that CD's were indestructible. It took time to learn they can be scratched or rot. Well there is something rotten here alright. CD's were more robust than LP. Those LPs were easily scratched. And CD's could be scratched and recover the data quite often with no audible defect. No one said they were indestructable, and there was no period of time needed for this to come to light. The man is a blooming fountain of idiotic proclamations.
 
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tr1ple6

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Like so many snake oil salesman, he started out with a good premise. Sure there is a period of time when new ideas are not believed by all but the difference between the examples like the earth not being flat and audio cables is that the former was changed by the weight of scientific evidence and not just a perceived difference. If he were to use his own premise properly then he would see that all the evidence he thinks supports his propositions is actually against it.
 
D

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I’ve seen a few of these anti measurement (for want of a better phrase) posts/videos pop up in recent weeks. I’ve also had a couple of conversations with dealers where I’ve brought measurements up. The dealers were saying very similar things, trying to be blasé when I asked how something measured but I noticed a change in them right away. They were uncomfortable with the conversation even going near that subject.

I am starting to think this forum has a lot of them worried. A lot of audiophiles go out and research (and research) the product they are about to purchase, it’s part of the hobby and why there are so many fluffy reviews out there to feed them. Imagine looking to buy a PS Audio DAC, for example. You’ve consumed all the fluff, excitement is growing, then you come across the ASR reviews with measurements. It would burst the bubble sufficiently for most of them to probably lose interest and start the search for something new all over again. Not all of them, but I would guess a significant proportion. These brands that churn out mediocre performance for eye watering prices, will surely start feeling the hit.

Videos like this one of Darkos actually say nothing. He just rambles in a very generic way, which probably serves two purposes.

1. To reassure the audiophile that there’s nothing to see here, they can be assured their expensive purchase was totally justified.

2. To discredit “the amateur guy who’s been measuring for a couple of years”. I expect we will see more of this and a desperate attempt to paint Amir and ASR as a bunch of amateur loonies who are bitter they can’t afford the shiny toys.
 

wje

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I am starting to think this forum has a lot of them worried. A lot of audiophiles go out and research (and research) the product they are about to purchase, it’s part of the hobby and why there are so many fluffy reviews out there to feed them. Imagine looking to buy a PS Audio DAC, for example. You’ve consumed all the fluff, excitement is growing, then you come across the ASR reviews with measurements. It would burst the bubble sufficiently for most of them to probably lose interest and start the search for something new all over again. Not all of them, but I would guess a significant proportion. These brands that churn out mediocre performance for eye watering prices, will surely start feeling the hit.

I think you've nailed it. For the past 2 decades, I know for myself, I was fed and ate into all the hype. Believing that a $5,000 DAC would sound better than a $200 one, etc. The measurements from the reviews on this site directly target the goose that lays the golden egg.
 

RayDunzl

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"What do you think of this video?"

Looks good to me.

Rectangular, full frame, adequate resolution, focused, in color, little teaser panes up front with pictures of people, has sound and auto-generated closed captions.
 

McFly

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I see a asr vs darko storms a comin’

may not be today. May not be tomorrow. But some day
 

wje

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I've liked to claim that I'm not influenced by commercials, etc. I was reading up on a piece of gear just a short bit ago and I'll provide the quote below. Aside from no measurements to back it up, doesn't this just draw you into the product? o_O

"The XYZ123 combines the slam, linearity, control and pacing of a Class D output stage with the warmth, grace, and rich inner detail of XYZ123’s Class A Analog Cell. The results are nothing short of breathtaking. Liberate all the toe-tapping energy trapped in your media library. Plumb music’s subterranean depths as your system gives you more bottom end than you thought possible. Revel in rich layers of fine, full detail. Marvel at the deep, extraordinary, wall-to-wall soundstage. Control your loudspeakers as never before. Effortless. Lush..."
 

BDWoody

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Imagine looking to buy a PS Audio DAC. You’ve consumed all the fluff, excitement is growing, then you come across the ASR reviews with measurements. It would burst the bubble sufficiently for most of them to probably lose interest and start the search for something new all over again.

Let's hope so...
 

mansr

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I've liked to claim that I'm not influenced by commercials, etc. I was reading up on a piece of gear just a short bit ago and I'll provide the quote below. Aside from no measurements to back it up, doesn't this just draw you into the product? o_O

"The XYZ123 combines the slam, linearity, control and pacing of a Class D output stage with the warmth, grace, and rich inner detail of XYZ123’s Class A Analog Cell. The results are nothing short of breathtaking. Liberate all the toe-tapping energy trapped in your media library. Plumb music’s subterranean depths as your system gives you more bottom end than you thought possible. Revel in rich layers of fine, full detail. Marvel at the deep, extraordinary, wall-to-wall soundstage. Control your loudspeakers as never before. Effortless. Lush..."
Paul McClown?
 

NoMoFoNo

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I've participated in discussions on AK and VE in which other posters, without any mention of ASR or Amir, snarkily bring up and attack both. That tells me this site is doing good stuff. Screw the audiophools, and especially screw the companies selling magical thinking at very high prices.

Oh, and screw the fellow hobbyists who cheerlead the cesspool of a hobby this has become.



I’ve seen a few of these anti measurement (for want of a better phrase) posts/videos pop up in recent weeks. I’ve also had a couple of conversations with dealers where I’ve brought measurements up. The dealers were saying very similar things, trying to be blasé when I asked how something measured but I noticed a change in them right away. They were uncomfortable with the conversation even going near that subject.

I am starting to think this forum has a lot of them worried. A lot of audiophiles go out and research (and research) the product they are about to purchase, it’s part of the hobby and why there are so many fluffy reviews out there to feed them. Imagine looking to buy a PS Audio DAC, for example. You’ve consumed all the fluff, excitement is growing, then you come across the ASR reviews with measurements. It would burst the bubble sufficiently for most of them to probably lose interest and start the search for something new all over again. Not all of them, but I would guess a significant proportion. These brands that churn out mediocre performance for eye watering prices, will surely start feeling the hit.

Videos like this one of Darkos actually say nothing. He just rambles in a very generic way, which probably serves two purposes.

1. To reassure the audiophile that there’s nothing to see here, they can be assured their expensive purchase was totally justified.

2. To discredit “the amateur guy who’s been measuring for a couple of years”. I expect we will see more of this and a desperate attempt to paint Amir and ASR as a bunch of amateur loonies who are bitter they can’t afford the shiny toys.
 

Zensō

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In some of his recent videos it seems as if he’s struggling with his own beliefs (or perhaps he’s just worried about losing followers and ad dollars). He went through quite some backflips there to rationalize the irrational. It’s actually embarrassing to watch. :facepalm:
 
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Blujackaal

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I am starting to think this forum has a lot of them worried. A lot of audiophiles go out and research (and research) the product they are about to purchase, it’s part of the hobby and why there are so many fluffy reviews out there to feed them. Imagine looking to buy a PS Audio DAC, for example. You’ve consumed all the fluff, excitement is growing, then you come across the ASR reviews with measurements. It would burst the bubble sufficiently for most of them to probably lose interest and start the search for something new all over again. Not all of them, but I would guess a significant proportion. These brands that churn out mediocre performance for eye watering prices, will surely start feeling the hit.

Because the thought of a objective audiophile hurts them. They got sore when schiit made amps that outperformed topping/JDS labs for $99, They get hostile when people crack open there headphones to see what inside. Like how one reviewer got shut down by noble(i think) for showing how barebones & cheap the insides are?.

They don't want people to catch on many brands are selling stuff that are DIY level at best while cringe level junk at worst. TOTL headphone/speaker brands are horrid for selling stuff that beaten by a $299 product with or without EQ?.
 

MattHooper

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Ugh...where to start.

Darko starts out with the hoary old "They called Galileo crazy too!" gambit. A version of "people thought X couldn't be true, but later science proved they were right!" This is used constantly by subjectivists and it is, not coincidentally, the calling card of every crank theory in existence, from every pseudo-science, alternative medicine, or fringe belief-system. "Just because it hasn't been proven YET doesn't mean it WON'T be shown to be true at some point."

The same goes for the claim my farts control the atmospheric tides of Jupiter. You don't get any legitimacy by saying some dubious claim might be shown true in the future. You want it adopted as true, you have to give sufficient evidence NOW. Otherwise, take a ticket and stand in that long line of crackpots using the same excuse.

All the examples Darko gave in his lead up had to do with our getting scientific confirmation, not just "some portion of people really believe this!"
The number of people in the world who believe Mohammad flew on a winged horse to heaven, or who believe astrology and homeopathy are true, vastly outnumber the audiophiles who believe high end cables are audibly better than competently designed cheaper cables. The number of people who believe something doesn't make it a fact that "has to be explained."

Darko pulls out what he clearly thinks to be his "take this, objectivists!" argument. He derives his beliefs from "experts" not just joe-blows on the internet. Don't YOU, mr. objectivist?" He names "experts" who design DACs for commercial companies.

What Darko of course gets wrong is that merely citing an "expert" isn't a sound argument. A claim is judged on the quality of the evidence, not on who makes the claim! That's why even the most renowned scientists in the world can't get away with just making an empirical claim with "trust me, I'm an expert." No, their claims are put to exactly the same crucible of testing as anyone else, because we know that everyone is prone to bias and mistakes. And, crucially, and what should be most sobering: most hypotheses do not survive this crucible!

If an "expert" turns out to be using a flaw in his method somewhere, his results are no more trustworthy than the non-expert using a flawed method.

So the question is, are the "experts" cited by Darko vetting whatever they claim by rigorous methods used to reduce known bias variables (e.g. sighted bias) - their results repeatable by others using similarly rigorous methods? As far as I'm aware: no. He's citing designers who work for commercial companies or who are also salesmen, who make technical claims but who also default to the flawed subjectivist method of "trying it and if I think I hear a difference, this validates my hypothesis!" Which is precisely the same method used to vet every alternative medicine and pseudo-science.

It doesn't mean that every person he cites ISN'T producing designs with audible consequences, but we need to see the quality of the EVIDENCE they have for whatever claim they are making. Darko doesn't point to any such evidence, but just cites "experts."

And, in his final portion he simply assumes the usual subjectivist stance - that you only come to new knowledge by "experience," - by which of course he means purely subjective experience, trying some audio gear or tweak, and if you haven't tried it, button your lips!

Then he gives an example of testing some "phoenix" thingy and, like so many audiophiles I've seen, he brushes off the possibility of imagining the differences with an anecdote about "not expecting to hear the differences that I heard, so it couldn't be confirmation bias." This is just a naive understanding of the nature of sighted bias, which is not constrained simply to expectation bias. Our perception can be influenced by numerous factors (even just listening for a difference, expecting one or not, can make you "hear" a difference - I've experienced it myself. Different ways we are concentrating, for a variety of reasons, can alter the sound and then we make dubious inferences as explanation without good controls).

I'd like to think that a lot of audiofoolery could be cured by giving everyone a basic understanding of the scientific method, and very important, an understanding of the REASONS we arrived at the method. However, we as a species are very good at walling off cherished beliefs and subjective experience from our more consistent, rational side. "Yeah, I agree science applies to that stuff over there very well, but not really to MY cherished hobby!"

(This is why researchers like Floyd Toole and others are such a huge breath of fresh air and clarity in the audio world!)
 
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