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What do you think is the standard price for HI-FI, HI-END?

Trying to put a hard number on what is essentially a social judgement seems doomed to failure, given social stratification exists. So here's other ways to approach the question.

High end starts at the price point where the people in your life think you are obsessed for spending that much on gear. And that means for truly wealthy people, there is no high end. No one would be so gauche as to ask what things cost in those circles.

Or maybe we could say the high end starts when we enter the Veblen Goods arena. Cut the price of "normal" hi fi by 50%, they will sell more units. Cut the price of "high end" by 50% and fewer units will be sold.

If we ask the question what is the price for transparent, then we can nail things down with measurements. Amp+DAC+ speakers + stands in my system, around $3000 US. I doubt many here would see that as "high end" in the social sense, though by the numbers it is transparent. My neighbor who is a sound engineer at a local venue would not see that as high end, my neighbor who is a printer probably would.
 
Though, personally, I would take $8,000 from the amplifier budget and put it toward the speakers:
Exactly. You can get all the amp you would ever need for $2k, unless the speakers are apogee duettas.
 
I have a $10-11k system (80% speakers)*. I haven’t heard a better system (and I’ve heard some Wilson, B&W, and Duntech set-ups), but I’m sure it exists. Whether it is so much better I would pay a multiple of what I have paid, I dunno.

*Revel F228be with Hypex class D amp and room EQ via Roon. I bought the speakers used.
 
To me, a high-end product would have to be absolutely exquisite in every way.

When it comes to audio gear, the sound quality is only one aspect. As has been pointed out, the electronics that is good enough to exceed our listening capabilities can be had a with very moderate investment, whereas top quality transducers are considerably more expensive.

Every piece of equipment should look superbly stylish and exclusive - immediately recognizable as superior compared to average stuff. In practice, I'd say something designed by the most talented ones from Italy.

Every electrical and mechanical component used should be of highest quality, and the enclosure should not contain any cheap materials, or parts.

Woodwork done in Finland by people who have shown their mastery in bespoke furniture building.

The assembly, fit and finish should be done in Switzerland.

To satisfy my criteria, my rough estimate for the price would be:
- 4 000 € for digital front-end (streamer, A/D conversion, DSP, D/A conversion)
- 15 000 € for Vinyl Player including tone-arm and pickup (to be connected to digital fron-end for A/D-conversion and RIAA-conversion in digital domain)
- 6 000 € for Amplification
- 25 000 € for Set of two speakers

All together 50 000 € VAT excluded. My estimation is that in principle this could be done, at least if we forget the luxury image surcharge, which could easily double the price.
 
This notion of high-end comes up often in our relatively wealthy world (at least the part of the world most of us inhabit).

There are several attributes that cost money. One is performance, but in the audio world that costs very little these days. This is a good thing for those whose primary focus is performance.

Then, there is the buying and owning experience--the way owning something makes one feel. Veblen doesn't really have this right, in my view, and seeks to place a moral implication on the choices we have in the market, based on price. Sometimes, buying extreme performance for very little money is as satisfying an ownership experience as buying and owning something that reflects luxury and exclusivity. But most who claim to be impervious to the attributes of luxury and exclusivity are usually so only in some areas, unless they truly are financially constrained. So, the guy on this forum who insists that low-cost, high-performing audio products represent the moral ceiling of expenditure might have a $100,000 bass boat in the shed or a $5000 fly-fishing rod and reel.

(The first example in a Google search--I know nothing about fly fishing: https://thomasandthomas.com/collections/rods/products/individualist?variant=3547665217)

And when challenged, they will claim that the sheer craft of what they are using brings joy quite unrelated to measured performance. Note that I observe many owners of extremely expensive hunting and fishing apparatus--far in excess of what is needed for performance--are not in the ranks of the landed gentry at all.

There is nothing remotely immoral about these choices. Frankly, the only required justification for one who is meeting other financial obligations (including the obligation to be generous) is that they want it and they have the money.

(What is immoral, however, is attempting to persuade people falsely that paying more necessarily achieves higher measured performance, particularly when the "measure" isn't measurable at all.)

So, I might select audio equipment with beautifully constructed circuits and machined-from-billet cases, with equipment design that simply gives me joy. It might not perform better than something from Topping, but equipping one's hobby isn't usually just about performance. When I buy a Topping, it's a transaction with Amazon and a delivery truck driver. When I buy, say, a Krell, it's a positive-reinforcement personal interaction with a sales executive (probably the owner of the store) and comes with a significant service delivery, if I want it to. And when I see "Krell" on that amp, and know that it was hand-assembled by a guy in Connecticut whose name I can (probably) pronounce and who is being paid a fair wage for doing so, I might feel a satisfaction unrelated to the lack of audio distortion.

Someone mentioned a Rolex watch. That is a bit of an extreme example, for two reasons: 1.) A Rolex as become the standard status symbol (in America, at least) of the newly rich, and 2.) while the quality is quite good (for a mechanical watch) it is also rather pricey with respect to its competitors, new or used, because of (1). One might instead own, say, a Ulysse Nardin Marine Chronometer, which is as advanced as a Rolex, likely even more accurate, much more uniquely (yet still classically) styled, more beautifully crafted, and maybe half the price on the secondary market. Or, they might own a Zenith chronograph which in most every measurable dimension--including craft and cachet, but not including price--is on a par with Rolex. I would contend that my Breguet Type XX is on a par with Rolex and is made by a company with deeper luxury credentials, but on the secondary market it will be less than half the price simply because I won't be competing with every successful car dealer or real-estate agent in the U.S. to own one. Mechanical watches are accurate enough but they are not accurate at all compared to quartz watches (well, except maybe for that Ulysse Nardin, my example of which is accurate within 15 seconds a month--standard quartz accuracy). But that isn't the point of them, any more than getting to the grocery story is the point of owning, say, an Aston Martin.

All that said, price thresholds are not a dimension that really makes a lot of sense to me for defining what is "high-end". The high-end experience is about who made it, how they made it, how it was sold, how owning it makes me feel, how it looks, the story that I can tell others about it, and stuff like that. Excelling in all those areas usually means a high price, but that's a byproduct of value only to those newly rich car dealers, it seems to me.

By the way, child-like writing that is an honest expression from a non-English-speaking writer beats perfect grammar from an AI embellishment bot any day.

Rick "not an AI bot" Denney
 
everything can be hi-end, even a 1000 euro system, when the speakers are positioned correctly, the choices of the system and its composition are logical and the listening room has the correct acoustics.

Almost everything can not even be hi-fi, if the speakers, even 60,000 euro ones, are badly positioned, the choices and the composition of the system are illogical and the listening room does not allow for good acoustics.

It is not a question of price, but it is a question of rules on how to build, where and how to position, and position yourself to listen at your best.
The term hi-fi or hi-end refers to the final result which should be the closest listening to the recorded reality; it does not refer to the price or the "caliber" of the individual devices as one would mistakenly believe.

It is not a fact that as the price increases, the performance increases. The performance of the devices is now available as competent even on devices that are little more than entry level.
 
I also understand well why they don't provide measurement values. They argue that "measurements cannot express the value and sound of our products."
But that sums it up really. High End Audio is about status enhancement, making the wealthy owner feel good and 'above' his (usually a 'he') friends and locals in the audio fraternity. I was told that one far eastern market was so 'bad' in this that gold danglking price tags should be fitted to the stuff selling there and a $12k phono stage would be 'better' than a $3k one which itself is 'better' than a $1k one, even if the latter wiped the floor performance-wise with the other two (look at the reverence Audio Note and Esoteric Audio Research products are held in some quarters, the latter deliberately blinged their products up and increased prices drastically to gain cachet in these markets with some success)

Edit - @rdenney above summed it all up better than I :)

P.S. Rolex is regarded as a 'B&O Type' product in thw 'high end' watch fraternity I was told. There are far more 'high end' mechanical watches out there with outrageously intricate movements and costing mutiples of the same I gather, Rolex in these circles being looked down on as 'audiophiles' often thought of B&O in past decades.

We seem to be a very tribal species, so par for the course if you can afford it...
 
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Usually, things do get better when they're more expensive. However, we should reconsider whether the value matches the price.
In what way 'better?'

I had a discussion about the SMSL SU1 dac, when someone wanted 'better.' Their realistic response was that they wanted more facilities, a display and remote control, possibly of output level as well. This can be done for well under $250 now and some of these boxes have half-decent headphone outputs as well. Moving up to what I think 'we here' feel is a highest end dac for overall performance, the RME certainly does it all at or very near the top of the tree, but I'm sure as you'd feel? that a nicer package to clothe it in would be advantageous. Tis would of course turn a sub $1500 unit into a severak grand one, simply 'cos a decent case in tiny quantities would add substantially to the cost.
 
The Goyard bag always struck me as the quintessential high end branded product. Intrinsic value seems around $30.

 
Hypothetical scenario... (numbers are just plucked from the air):

Company A, B and C have all been making 50W HiFi amplifiers for many years. They have worked hard at getting the performance to be good enough (lets say about 85dB SINAD) and the cost of manufacture as low as possible. They all have a bill of materials of about £500 and compete with each other on sales price near £800.

A new player comes to the market, Company D. They have also developed a 50W amplifier and they also managed to get a SINAD of about 85dB but their bill of materials has ended up being £750. It is going to be very hard for them to gain any market share if they attempt to directly compete with companies A, B and C. So they have a few possible options:

Option 1) Spend a lot more time and money working hard on trying to improve the performance. Well this is hard, frankly they don't have the expertise within the company to improve on the reference designs provided on the component manufacturers datasheets. They don't have some of the expensive test equipment that would be needed to quantify improvements in performance. This option is out, for now.

Option 2) Attempt to lower the bill of materials and compete on price. The problem is companies A, B and C have long-standing agreements with the component suppliers and have negotiated the best possible prices. Those other companies also have existing market share so they are selling enough units to buy components in higher quantities and therefore get a lower price. This option doesn't look easy either.

Option 3) Attempt to position their device as High-End. Keep the amplifier parts the same but give the case a really quirky, over-engineered look. Also spend a bit on producing some glossy marketing copy and paying some magazines and influencers to promote their product. The bill of materials now went up to £1200. Company D now can't possibly compete on price with the established companies. They could sell at £1500 but they know that buyers won't believe that their product is so much better than the others that it justifies the extra cost. So they go full Veblen! They set the price at £15000 and now some people can believe that their product has something special about it. It also gives their customers the feeling of status knowing they have the most expensive amplifier. Company D's salesmen, in their luxury showrooms, are trained to laugh in distain if anyone dares to compare the performance of their product with the "budget" offerings from Company A, B or C. And the great thing for company D is that they now only need to sell a small number of units per year to remain profitable.
Add a zero to the selling price over the ex-works price and you may be getting there ;)

Bill of materials - £1200 of which case is probably several hundred in small numbers, retail for £12,000 and more like £15000 once modern-day dealer margins and VAT is factored in. One or two budget makers worked on a seven-times markup, but looking at current products of theirs, I'd suggest those days have now gone.
 
But that sums it up really. High End Audio is about status enhancement, making the wealthy owner feel good and 'above' his (usually a 'he') friends and locals in the audio fraternity. I was told that one far eastern market was so 'bad' in this that gold danglking price tags should be fitted to the stuff selling there and a $12k phono stage would be 'better' than a $3k one which itself is 'better' than a $1k one, even if the latter wiped the floor performance-wise with the other two (look at the reverence Audio Note and Esoteric Audio Research products are held in some quarters, the latter deliberately blinged their products up and increased prices drastically to gain cachet in these markets with some success)

Edit - @rdenney above summed it all up better than I :)

P.S. Rolex is regarded as a 'B&O Type' product in thw 'high end' watch fraternity I was told. There are far more 'high end' mechanical watches out there with outrageously intricate movements and costing mutiples of the same I gather, Rolex in these circles being looked down on as 'audiophiles' often thought of B&O in past decades.

We seem to be a very tribal species, so par for the course if you can afford it...
As a watch nerd, I relate Rolex with McIntosh. I perceive them both as brands widely known for recognizable (some might say blingy) look and high prices. Consequently, they are often bought by people who want them exactly for that reason - To convey image of wealth.
 
P.S. Rolex is regarded as a 'B&O Type' product in thw 'high end' watch fraternity I was told. There are far more 'high end' mechanical watches out there with outrageously intricate movements and costing mutiples of the same I gather, Rolex in these circles being looked down on as 'audiophiles' often thought of B&O in past decades.
Watch enthusiasts think of Rolex as a mid-market brand, with very high production levels and actually superbly consistent performance. B&O is probably a pretty good analog, but so would be McIntosh, it seems to me, especially considering pricing in the secondary market. They also excel in having a dealer network for support and service, though they seem to be undermining this of late.

The owner of a Patek-Philippe Nautilus or an Audemars-Piguet Royal Oak or a Vacheron Constantin Overseas (steel sport watches all) isn't going to swoon in admiration of a Rolex Submariner on the arm of a person with whom they are interacting. But neither will they disrespect it--those owners may well wear a Rolex for working in the garden, if they are landed gentry, or to the beach if they are an enthusiast.

But there is absolutely no limit to how much one can spend on a watch. I had lunch with the executive of a high-end audio company and the retire chief general counsel of a corporation you have heard of in Boston a while back (we are all watch collectors) and after lunch we wandered over to the Back Bay to visit the watch boutiques. We started with a visit to the Richard Mille boutique, where I was persuaded to try on their latest offering. I didn't even want to touch it, let alone be responsible for holding it in my hands. Price: a paltry (for Richard Mille) $300,000. (I was wearing a Ulysse Nardin Marine Chronometer that day. The other two guys were wearing a Vacheron Constantin Overseas and a Credor Eichi II. Look the latter up, and when you are shocked by the price, remember that it is superbly hand-crafted by...Seiko.)

Rick "there is always a bigger fish" Denney
 
I'm not sure there anything worthwhile in terms of audio engineering within the band of products that's being defined here as Hi-End .

By worthwhile I mean boundary pushing in terms of audio engineering.

It's all so throughly annexed from true performance audio as to become a total waste of time , for my interests and likely those of the membership.

I'm looking forward to the effect of AI on DSP and how we listen to music at home. Other than that little to get excited about imo . It's all been done to death .
 
everything can be hi-end, even a 1000 euro system, when the speakers are positioned correctly, the choices of the system and its composition are logical and the listening room has the correct acoustics.

Almost everything can not even be hi-fi, if the speakers, even 60,000 euro ones, are badly positioned, the choices and the composition of the system are illogical and the listening room does not allow for good acoustics.

It is not a question of price, but it is a question of rules on how to build, where and how to position, and position yourself to listen at your best.
The term hi-fi or hi-end refers to the final result which should be the closest listening to the recorded reality; it does not refer to the price or the "caliber" of the individual devices as one would mistakenly believe.

It is not a fact that as the price increases, the performance increases. The performance of the devices is now available as competent even on devices that are little more than entry level.
Some people do use high-end and hifi interchangeably to mean high performance but to me the terms have quite different meanings.

HiFi - high fidelity is really about high performance (which is mostly what you were talking about). Indeed, this can be achieved at quite low cost today.

High-End is much more about something being a luxury product, with its high cost and exclusivity being part of its cachet. The looks and marketing that make a product high-end do nothing to improve its performance.

Admittedly, sometimes the factors that contribute to something being high-end / luxury are use of higher quality components and materials than strictly necessary, longer warranty terms, better residual resale value, etc. Which can sometimes be used to self-justify the higher expense.
 
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It's interesting with these watch brands - a lot of the very expensive makes I'd never heard of until reading this site.

I wouldn't be impressed by someone wearing a Vacheron Constantine since as far as I know they are twenty quid off Amazon.

Rolex I have heard of so at least if I spot someone wearing one I think they must have a few quid. But of course it could just be a fake bought in TJ for ten dollars.

I always wanted a Rolex since Bond wore one in Dr No. Plus people would see it and think 'He must have a few quid.' But when I got to the point where I could afford one, at least a 'cheap' one I decided I could not spend that sort of money on a watch.

Contrary to that I really don't think anyone buys Mcintosh or any other pricey hi-fi brand for status, or because Bond had one. Everyone I know with expensive hi-fi brands bought them because they thought they were buying better sound quality. Everyone - without exception.

The general public don't see it as it is in your home, not on your wrist. And they've never heard of Mcintosh just like I'd never heard of Vacheron.
 
Bill of materials - £1200 of which case is probably several hundred in small numbers, retail for £12,000 and more like £15000 once modern-day dealer margins and VAT is factored in.
That is realistic.

Bill of Material (BOM) costs are one thing, but there also are labor and overhead costs. Overhead, e.g., factories, engineers, managers, sales staff, accounting staff, etc., are not free. When I worked in manufacturing long ago, we typically strived for a 60% prime cost contribution margin (PCCM), which means we multiplied the hard cost (BOM costs and labor costs) by 2.5 to try to maintain at least a 10% net profit. In the case of consumer goods, then add to that the store markup, which at that time ranged between 2x and 2.5x, which they needed to cover their overhead and achieve a profit. So, you are looking at a cost to the customer of between 5.0 and 6.25 times the hard cost. If you have a distributor in the chain between the factory and the stores, who also add their cut, now you probably are looking at 6 to 7.5 times hard cost. In a country that has a 20% VAT, now you are looking at 7.2 to 9 times hard cost.

But, times have changed. When outsourcing manufacturing to low cost regions, BOM costs, labor costs and overhead are significantly reduced. Also, many audio companies now are going direct to consumer and skipping the retail chain. This can serve to allow them to increase their PCCM, though sales expenses are increased. Still, direct to consumer can result in those products being less expensive than equivalent products sold through the typical retail chain.
 
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...

I wouldn't be impressed by someone wearing a Vacheron Constantine since as far as I know they are twenty quid off Amazon.

Rolex I have heard of so at least if I spot someone wearing one I think they must have a few quid. But of course it could just be a fake bought in TJ for ten dollars.

I always wanted a Rolex since Bond wore one in Dr No. Plus people would see it and think 'He must have a few quid.' But when I got to the point where I could afford one, at least a 'cheap' one I decided I could not spend that sort of money on a watch.

Contrary to that I really don't think anyone buys Mcintosh or any other pricey hi-fi brand for status, or because Bond had one. Everyone I know with expensive hi-fi brands bought them because they thought they were buying better sound quality. Everyone - without exception.

The general public don't see it as it is in your home, not on your wrist. And they've never heard of Mcintosh just like I'd never heard of Vacheron.
Despite the ridiculousness of my watch collection, and there really is no possible justification for it, I do not own a Rolex. This not because I disrespect the brand or wouldn't wear one, but rather because they never seem to come my way as a unique buying opportunity. Their very ubiquity as a status symbol prevents that.

But I'm sitting in an office of those who do not at all make a lot of money and who might be put off by ostentatious displays of wealth, and I'm wearing my Breguet Type XX with complete anonymity. That's okay with me, and even a positive. I bought it for me, not for them, but I make a lot of choices to avoid making those with whom I work uncomfortable for any reason. I suspect that only a Rolex would have that connotation--I could wear that Richard Mille and they would think, as you say, that I bought it off Amazon. Again, that's fine.

That 20-quid Vacheron-Constantine is just like the 20-quid Rollex--a Canal-Street fake if there ever was one. Probably with a $2 quartz movement. Even the crappy mechanical fakes get several hundred bucks these days :)

I take your point and agree that most expensive watch wearers are honest that their watches are man-jewelry and that the extra they are spending is for stuff unrelated to time-keeping performance. And that many buyers of high-end audio believe in the more-expensive=higher-performing myth. This is the fundamental dishonesty of the audio industry (including the press) these days--this notion that one can expect better performance by paying more. They won't own those other attributes for which people would spend real money.

But I would bet that most people, if over to the house for a visit, would recognize McIntosh equipment as being pretty fancy stuff, simply because of how it is styled. Gordon Gow understood the importance of that even back in the days when Frank McIntosh was running the company.

Rick "a fan of McIntosh of old, but doesn't own any" Denney
 
I consider Wilson Audio to be the most capable of perfectly tuning the sound structurally.
Attached are estimated in-room frequency response and directivity measurements useful for comparing the Wilson TuneTot ($10,000/pair) to the MoFi Sourcepoint 8 ($2,000/pair). My earlier post has a link to the TuneTot review. Here is the full review of the Sourcepoint 8:


Objectively speaking, the MoFi speaker walks all over the Wilson, doing so at 1/5 the price. The only objective measurement in which the TuneTot outperforms the Sourcepoint 8 is harmonic distortion below about 175Hz (probably due to its stout cabinet). But, the bass extension is not good; the lower f3 point of the TuneTot is around 82Hz. The Sourcepoint 8 has a lower F3 of 50Hz.
 

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