• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

what do people think about the "Klipsch sound" ?

Wolf

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Nov 21, 2020
Messages
557
Likes
589
Location
Indiana
Of the more modern models, I feel they have a hole in the response between the midbass and tweeter, as in they don't quite meet in the middle. They can be dynamic, but lack detail and/or top-end treble.
 

Angsty

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Apr 11, 2020
Messages
1,862
Likes
2,215
Location
North Carolina, U.S.
Depends on the model. I found the Lascala's mid bass boost to be distracting, fat and muddy in the room I listened. the klipschhorns make live recordings sound exciting and avoid the poor midbass of the lascala's while being able to play deep bass. In the long term klipsch speakers wear me out, but fun factor I can see why they're so popular.
On the La Scala AL5 and the Klipschorn AK6, don't they currently use the same tweeter and mid-range units? I must confess my guilty pleasure of watching several of the Klipsch speaker shootouts on the YouTube channel for Paducah Home Theater, a Klipsch specialist dealer. Although I know the sonics I hear on the stream are not really representative of the actual in-room sound, I do like the commentary on the differences between models from knowledgeable listeners.

It seemed to me that many of the differences they attributed to the midrange and high frequency sound between the two could be largely due to the psychoacoustics of loudness (i.e. speaker sensitivity) and height differences, although I have not heard a "heritage" Klipsch model in person in well over a decade. Working to find a dealer and time to do a listening refresh.

Do the arrival time delays between the drivers contribute to the "live" sound or are other factors more dominant? Wouldn't arrival time issues make it harder to integrate a cone subwoofer for low bass?
 

garyrc

Active Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2021
Messages
107
Likes
115
Poorly designed crossovers will not be able to be corrected with EQ (but improved - sure). This is because if the crossover is suboptimal then correcting the FR at a single point in space will create problems at other points in space.

For example, if cancellation resulting from a suboptimal crossover causes a dip at the crossover point on-axis, using EQ to correct this dip will result in peaks off-axis.
Several automated room EQ devices require several (e.g. 8) mic placements in order for the software to get a "picture" of the room and listening positions. Instead of simply averaging the signals picked up by the mic in all its positions, they use "fuzzy logic" (a good thing) with weighting and some secret sauce to compensate for the anomalies you are talking about, whether they are due to the crossover or something else.
 

garyrc

Active Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2021
Messages
107
Likes
115
Do the arrival time delays between the drivers contribute to the "live" sound or are other factors more dominant? Wouldn't arrival time issues make it harder to integrate a cone subwoofer for low bass?



Responding separately to the two questions:

1)
Do the arrival time delays between the drivers contribute to the "live" sound or are other factors more dominant?

This may depend on what you mean by "live" sound. a) sounding like the individual instruments, including the inner voices of the orchestra, and the whole group/orchestra is present in front of the listeners, providing "something to trigger their musical gestalt" as J. Gordon Holt put it when describing the reactions of musicians to Klipshorns, or b) a midrange/treble boost that makes the music sound "bright" or, to some, "too bright," a little like a bright/too bright room.

a) I wondered about this, too. Some of the electronic room treatment devices of the 1970s that were "exciters" meant to give a sense of presence, ambience and surround without true surround channels messed around with phase. In a demo, I heard some instruments fairly far away from the speaker array, and sounding distinctly more like they were there in the room, "just like" a live orchestra. I'm not referring to the "straightforward" ones, like the Lexicon CP-1 environmental processor, but ones that did phasey stuff and played with altered time delay within the frequency band, and detached harmonics fed back into the signal stream. If I think of the names of the manufacturers or units, I'll post them later.

Suddenly, as Sergei Eisenstein would have it, a whole bunch of processors (usable for home environments, control rooms, and musical instruments) arrived on the market, c. 2020.

"AIR"
5 Types of Reverb Explained Featured Image

Hall Reverb
Hall-Reverb-with-Audio-Ease-Altiverb-7-Plug-in-650x278.jpg




But those on the Klipsch community forum who have heard either the Klipschorn or the Jubilee with the arrival time delays between the drivers digitally eliminated seem to prefer them that way, and report a considerable improvement. I hope it was double blind.

FWIW, my hypothesis as to what causes Klipschorns and Jubilees to sound like live music, the "other factors" that are more dominant are
very low modulation distortion (with many fewer and lower amplitude side bands which are blurring, and are also harmonically ill-related -- not the same thing as conventionally measured THD) compared to non-horn speakers, and potentially great dynamics, both micro and macro.

b) If by "live" you mean "too bright," I'm betting that in the case of the Klipschorn, it arises from three basic factors: being "a bit jagged in the midrange," to use the wording in Heyser's basically favorable review in AUDIO, being slightly attenuated below 80 Hz (it comes back up at
about 43 Hz, and stays a while, then declines, but responds as low as 24Hz), and the obscene number of modern recordings (especially Rock, Metal, various kinds of Pop) that are over-compressed, and bass attenuated, starting at the exact place the Khorn is. Google The Missing Octaves by Chris A.
post-26262-0-56580000-1422364014.gif


I just turn up the bass a bit to regain balance, adjusting to taste. The overall cure is using something like Audyssey or Dirac, which handily produces pretty flat response at the MLP. It can make a Klipschorn flatter than many touted high end speakers in the midrange and treble, if the curves in Stereophile (other than the misleading Khorn curve they measured on a furniture dolly in a driveway) are any indication.

2) Wouldn't arrival time issues make it harder to integrate a cone subwoofer for low bass? I don't know. But mine integrates fine. Many Klipsch folk use a DIY horn subwoofer. But horn or direct radiator, arrival time can be fixed digitally. With a subwoofer, the room compensating digital electronics treat the subwoofer as a whole (naturally) and adjusts it so its output will arrive at the same time as that of all other speakers. The only problem occures between the individual drivers in the Khorns. That gets cured with tri-amping using digital delay circuits, if you want to go that far.
 
Last edited:

garyrc

Active Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2021
Messages
107
Likes
115
To anyone wondering about the Klipsch Sound as heard from the Klipschorn.

The Klipschorn without automated room/speaker correction like Audyssey (FLAT) or Dirac has somewhat jagged response, but has only a very slight (~~2 dB, usually less) average elevation of the mid frequencies or the treble.

With automated room, speaker correction it has fairly smooth midrange and treble. These graphs are the same as mine in the thread "Stereophile review of the Klipschorn."
index.php


1641515162377.png

The K77F tweeter, (divisions are 5 dB) post Audyssey FLAT, crosses the line at 12.27K, and extends to 17K, about +/- 1.5 dB to about 15K Hz. For a few, especially clean recordings, I can boost the high treble by about 3 dB with a tone control. With the right recordings, it is cortex tingling.

The great advantage of fully horn loaded speakers like the Klipschorn is that 1) They have very low distortion, including modulation distortion, and 2) they are marvelously sensitive --in an anechoic chamber, 101 dB at 2.83v (1 watt into 8 Ohms) --at 1 meter, and 105 dB/2.83/1 meter in a more or less"typical" living room. So, 64 watts into a Klipschorn is the equivalent of 1,024 watts into a typical 90 dB/2.83v/1 meter, bringing you about 114 dB at 13 feet, in a 4,000 cu. ft., with instantaneous peaks (1/4 second) 3 dB higher, at 116 dB, equal to full orchestral peaks (playing a bit louder than average). A large non-horn direct radiator speaker which was in a bass reflex, i.e., ported, cabinet, also made by Klipsch, with identical drivers, was measured, under the same acoustical conditions at three times the modulation distortion, at 10 dB lower output.

One reason the Klipschorn -- and many other speakers -- have sounded out of balance in recent years is that the recording industry has been involved in the "loudness wars," often resulting in less bass (by about 9 or 10 dB at 40 Hz) so that the overall loudness can be much louder (and more compressed/limited) than it could be without bass cut. I sometimes boost the bass by about 6 to 10 dB to compensate for this. It is totally unnecessary with good recordings, not under the thral of "the loudness wars," often classical or jazz, sometimes on SACD or DVD-A, etc.
 
Last edited:

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,558
Likes
5,871
Location
Santa Fe, NM
To anyone wondering about the Klipsch Sound as heard from the Klipschorn.

The Klipschorn without automated room/speaker correction like Audyssey (FLAT) or Dirac has somewhat jagged response, but has only a very slight (~~2 dB, usually less) average elevation of the mid frequencies or the treble.

With automated room, speaker correction it has fairly smooth midrange and treble. These graphs are the same as mine in the thread "Stereophile review of the Klipschorn."
index.php


1641515162377.png

The K77F tweeter, (divisions are 5 dB) post Audyssey FLAT, crosses the line at 12.27K, and extends to 17K, about +/- 1.5 dB to about 15K Hz. For a few, especially clean recordings, I can boost the high treble by about 3 dB with a tone control. With the right recordings, it is cortex tingling.

The great advantage of fully horn loaded speakers like the Klipschorn is that 1) They have very low distortion, including modulation distortion, and 2) they are marvelously sensitive --in an anechoic chamber, 101 dB at 2.83v (1 watt into 8 Ohms) --at 1 meter, and 105 dB/2.83/1 meter in a more or less"typical" living room. So, 64 watts into a Klipschorn is the equivalent of 1,024 watts into a typical 90 dB/2.83v/1 meter, bringing you about 114 dB at 13 feet, in a 4,000 cu. ft., with instantaneous peaks (1/4 second) 3 dB higher, at 116 dB, equal to full orchestral peaks (playing a bit louder than average). A large non-horn direct radiator speaker which was in a bass reflex, i.e., ported, cabinet, also made by Klipsch, with identical drivers, was measured, under the same acoustical conditions at three times the modulation distortion, at 10 dB lower output.

One reason the Klipschorn -- and many other speakers -- have sounded out of balance in recent years is that the recording industry has been involved in the "loudness wars," often resulting in less bass (by about 9 or 10 dB at 40 Hz) so that the overall loudness can be much louder (and more compressed/limited) than it could be without bass cut. I sometimes boost the bass by about 6 to 10 dB to compensate for this. It is totally unnecessary with good recordings, not under the thral of "the loudness wars," often classical or jazz, sometimes on SACD or DVD-A, etc.
Could you re-post the REW curve but do it from 20Hz-20kHz, and do it with 1/6th octave smoothing? The Y axis is fine. I'd like to see what its doing across the full range without heavy smoothing which obscures a lot.

I'm not wanting to pick on the Klipschorn - I have large horns - but the above looks smoother than the probable reality is.
 

dasdoing

Major Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2020
Messages
4,208
Likes
2,673
Location
Salvador-Bahia-Brasil
Could you re-post the REW curve but do it from 20Hz-20kHz, and do it with 1/6th octave smoothing? The Y axis is fine. I'd like to see what its doing across the full range without heavy smoothing which obscures a lot.

I'm not wanting to pick on the Klipschorn - I have large horns - but the above looks smoother than the probable reality is.

1/6th is still heavy smoothing. var smoothing is the best compromise
 

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,558
Likes
5,871
Location
Santa Fe, NM
1/6th is still heavy smoothing. var smoothing is the best compromise
Please humor me. I'd like to see 1/6th octave smoothing, or just post the REW file and I can make of it what I wish.
 

garyrc

Active Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2021
Messages
107
Likes
115
Could you re-post the REW curve but do it from 20Hz-20kHz, and do it with 1/6th octave smoothing? The Y axis is fine. I'd like to see what its doing across the full range without heavy smoothing which obscures a lot.

I'm not wanting to pick on the Klipschorn - I have large horns - but the above looks smoother than the probable reality is.
Mic preamp broken, so I can't run new curves at the moment. Here are some from 2013 (I think).

Here, a little bass boost is provided to resemble the Harmon curve. Normally, the sub might come in at about 80 Hz, so frequencies below about 80 Hz on this graph can be mostly ignored. I don't know what's happening at 40 Hz o_O. This is 1/6 octave smoothed.
1642762732655.png


The curve below should not be heeded in the bass range because a gargantuan amount of bass was added after Audyssey in an experiment. 1/3 oct.
1642726181598.png

The anti-equalizer folk have long pointed out that a curve equalized to be flat will be very different, and not flat if the listener moves a bit to one side. Of course, there will also be changes as a result of such a move even with a high- end speaker and no equalizer. This may be just about the only thing Paul Klipsch and Edgar Villchur agreed upon. :facepalm: For this reason a single microphone should not be used for frequency response measurements. Does that render all of the single microphone position curves we see above invalid? Even our ears are in two different positions. I don't want to think about it.

Below, we have an REW average taken by placing the calibrated mic in as exactly the same 8 places -- as closely as possible --that the Audyssey mic occupied during the room correction. A lot of work for those of us with Audio-OCD. Two notes: 1) The highs roll off due to using Audyssey reference (instead of Audyssey flat) 2) I was simultaneously seeing what I could get at Bass tone control +6 (affects LF & RF speakers only), so I didn't plot the deep bass, because I had the subwoofer turned off. 1/3 oct.
1642764842844.png
 

Attachments

  • 1642720930412.gif
    1642720930412.gif
    42 bytes · Views: 65
  • 1642761103677.png
    1642761103677.png
    142.2 KB · Views: 55
  • 1642757782523.png
    1642757782523.png
    188 KB · Views: 57
  • 1642725752484.png
    1642725752484.png
    188 KB · Views: 52
  • 1642724343739.png
    1642724343739.png
    188 KB · Views: 51
  • 1642721009313.gif
    1642721009313.gif
    42 bytes · Views: 68
  • 1642721009203.gif
    1642721009203.gif
    42 bytes · Views: 64
  • 1642721009011.gif
    1642721009011.gif
    42 bytes · Views: 62
  • 1642721008963.gif
    1642721008963.gif
    42 bytes · Views: 67
Last edited:

Ciobi69

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2022
Messages
398
Likes
247
To anyone wondering about the Klipsch Sound as heard from the Klipschorn.

The Klipschorn without automated room/speaker correction like Audyssey (FLAT) or Dirac has somewhat jagged response, but has only a very slight (~~2 dB, usually less) average elevation of the mid frequencies or the treble.

With automated room, speaker correction it has fairly smooth midrange and treble. These graphs are the same as mine in the thread "Stereophile review of the Klipschorn."
index.php


1641515162377.png

The K77F tweeter, (divisions are 5 dB) post Audyssey FLAT, crosses the line at 12.27K, and extends to 17K, about +/- 1.5 dB to about 15K Hz. For a few, especially clean recordings, I can boost the high treble by about 3 dB with a tone control. With the right recordings, it is cortex tingling.

The great advantage of fully horn loaded speakers like the Klipschorn is that 1) They have very low distortion, including modulation distortion, and 2) they are marvelously sensitive --in an anechoic chamber, 101 dB at 2.83v (1 watt into 8 Ohms) --at 1 meter, and 105 dB/2.83/1 meter in a more or less"typical" living room. So, 64 watts into a Klipschorn is the equivalent of 1,024 watts into a typical 90 dB/2.83v/1 meter, bringing you about 114 dB at 13 feet, in a 4,000 cu. ft., with instantaneous peaks (1/4 second) 3 dB higher, at 116 dB, equal to full orchestral peaks (playing a bit louder than average). A large non-horn direct radiator speaker which was in a bass reflex, i.e., ported, cabinet, also made by Klipsch, with identical drivers, was measured, under the same acoustical conditions at three times the modulation distortion, at 10 dB lower output.

One reason the Klipschorn -- and many other speakers -- have sounded out of balance in recent years is that the recording industry has been involved in the "loudness wars," often resulting in less bass (by about 9 or 10 dB at 40 Hz) so that the overall loudness can be much louder (and more compressed/limited) than it could be without bass cut. I sometimes boost the bass by about 6 to 10 dB to compensate for this. It is totally unnecessary with good recordings, not under the thral of "the loudness wars," often classical or jazz, sometimes on SACD or DVD-A, etc.
I got a pair of khorn that i have to place kn the future house, didn't expect that their frequency response could be Soo linear, i am stocked , i hope to use them soon! And i probably will add a mini DSP with Dirac live Soo i can tune them better
 

garyrc

Active Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2021
Messages
107
Likes
115
I got a pair of khorn that i have to place kn the future house, didn't expect that their frequency response could be Soo linear, i am stocked , i hope to use them soon! And i probably will add a mini DSP with Dirac live Soo i can tune them better

I'm glad you will be using Dirac. Many users find it to be superior to Audyssey.

As you probably know, it comes in at least 3 varieties.

Klipschorns are not very smooth unless helped by something like Dirac. They do have other great qualities, though like low distortion (especially low modulation distortion), high sensitivity, great dynamics, etc. I would urge you to 1) Treat the room first, 2) get a Full Bandwidth version of Dirac

Here is what Dirac says:

"To offer our business partners flexibility for licensing Dirac Live, we’ve developed three tiers.
— Ready: The system is prepared for Dirac Live Room Correction. Just purchase an end-user license to activate it.
— Limited bandwidth: The system can perform room correction up to 500 Hz, and the target curve can be tailored within this range. This correction is sufficient to deal with the bass and voice areas but not the entire audible spectrum. Upgrade Limited bandwidth to full bandwidth.
— Full bandwidth: This is the top tier of the room correction feature. It allows the system to be corrected across the entire frequency range while giving you full control of the target curve."

IMO, with modern recordings that fall victim of the "loudness wars" you may want 3 to 6 dB bass boost.

By using the "Full Bandwidth" Dirac, you can fix some anomalies in the mid and treble frequencies, as well.
 
Last edited:

Ciobi69

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2022
Messages
398
Likes
247
I'm glad you will be using Dirac. Many users find it to be superior to Audyssey.

As you probably know, it comes in at least 3 varieties.

Klipschorns are not very smooth unless helped by something like Dirac. They do have other great qualities, though like low distortion (especially low modulation distortion, high sensitivity, great dynamics, etc. I would urge you to 1) Treat the room first, 2) get a Full

Here is what Dirac says:

"To offer our business partners flexibility for licensing Dirac Live, we’ve developed three tiers.
— Ready: The system is prepared for Dirac Live Room Correction. Just purchase an end-user license to activate it.
— Limited bandwidth: The system can perform room correction up to 500 Hz, and the target curve can be tailored within this range. This correction is sufficient to deal with the bass and voice areas but not the entire audible spectrum. Upgrade Limited bandwidth to full bandwidth.
— Full bandwidth: This is the top tier of the room correction feature. It allows the system to be corrected across the entire frequency range while giving you full control of the target curve."

IMO, with modern recordings that fall victim of the "loudness wars" you may want 3 to 6 dB bass boost.

By using the "Full Bandwidth" Dirac, you can fix some anomalies in the mid and treble frequencies, as welltt

I'm glad you will be using Dirac. Many users find it to be superior to Audyssey.

As you probably know, it comes in at least 3 varieties.

Klipschorns are not very smooth unless helped by something like Dirac. They do have other great qualities, though like low distortion (especially low modulation distortion, high sensitivity, great dynamics, etc. I would urge you to 1) Treat the room first, 2) get a Full

Here is what Dirac says:

"To offer our business partners flexibility for licensing Dirac Live, we’ve developed three tiers.
— Ready: The system is prepared for Dirac Live Room Correction. Just purchase an end-user license to activate it.
— Limited bandwidth: The system can perform room correction up to 500 Hz, and the target curve can be tailored within this range. This correction is sufficient to deal with the bass and voice areas but not the entire audible spectrum. Upgrade Limited bandwidth to full bandwidth.
— Full bandwidth: This is the top tier of the room correction feature. It allows the system to be corrected across the entire frequency range while giving you full control of the target curve."

IMO, with modern recordings that fall victim of the "loudness wars" you may want 3 to 6 dB bass boost.

By using the "Full Bandwidth" Dirac, you can fix some anomalies in the mid and treble frequencies, as well.
This is what I got on my receiver i use the full Dirac and can make the curve however I want,i hope to work soon on it, Klipschorn is an awesome speaker , mine are old but doesn't changed a lot with the time , they are powered with a single ended tube amp with 8 watt in class A might try the newer class d now, with higher sinad Soo they will be dead silence
 

Ciobi69

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 27, 2022
Messages
398
Likes
247
1969
 

Attachments

  • Screenshot_2022-01-20-14-01-56-964_com.google.android.apps.photos.jpg
    Screenshot_2022-01-20-14-01-56-964_com.google.android.apps.photos.jpg
    103.8 KB · Views: 74

dlaloum

Major Contributor
Joined
Oct 4, 2021
Messages
3,092
Likes
2,353
I had heard so much about the Klipsch sound over the years... so in the early 90's I tried a pair of Forte's (I think they were Forte III's, but might have been II's - it was a while back!)

This is coming from years of having been a Quad electrostatic fan...

I tried different amps, different room setups, but ultimately I could not get happy with their sound.

I think you are either an ESL person or a Horn person....

Never had a chance to give the big Klipsch's a decent listen (KHorns, or La Scala/Belle) - so my bias may be unfair - but then I have never had a listening room that could reasonably fit them... the electrostatic panels were a squeeze! KHorns would never have fit - La Scala's maybe... possibly... if I was totally sold on them... (at the time) ...in my current home - definitely not.
 

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,558
Likes
5,871
Location
Santa Fe, NM
....they are powered with a single ended tube amp with 8 watt in class A might try the newer class d now, with higher sinad Soo they will be dead silence
Egads, please don't! A low powered single ended triode is the ideal amp for high efficiency horn speakers. The only thing you're likely to achieve with higher power is the ability to blow out the diaphragms of the drivers if there's a mishap like an RCA cable accidently getting pulled. If you're having noise issues with your single ended amp, the solution is to either modify it or choose another single ended triode amp which doesn't have a noise problem.

Class D is not a solution for Klipschhorns. Just say no. :mad:
 

dasdoing

Major Contributor
Joined
May 20, 2020
Messages
4,208
Likes
2,673
Location
Salvador-Bahia-Brasil
I wonder if anybody here ever tryed to FIR-correct the problem in high treble that compression drivers have?
 
Last edited:

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,558
Likes
5,871
Location
Santa Fe, NM

MakeMineVinyl

Major Contributor
Joined
Jun 5, 2020
Messages
3,558
Likes
5,871
Location
Santa Fe, NM
"washed" sound above 10KHz, caused by the phase plug . that's why many can't stand CDs (though it is stupid to trade the much better mids (where 100% of acoustic instruments are present) of the CDs for better high-hats).
Oh, I see you were talking about constant directivity horns, not the silver discs. Never mind. :facepalm:

Misunderstanding intent is one of the dangers of using acronyms and abbreviations on forum posts. I would appeal to people to please stop using them because even technically proficient people like me can be totally confused because the context isn't necessarily there. Besides, exercising our fingers is good - it makes for a better typist (or keyboardist or whatever). ;)
 
Top Bottom