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What Do Listeners Prefer for Small Room Acoustics?

AJ Soundfield

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Ok, a recent thread about panel speaker measurements lead me to contact Dr Floyd Toole, to discuss some issues regarding references made to the measurements. Our correspondence addressd that issue, but also lead off on a completely different tangent, one the title of this thread. Why not post in the Acoustics forum?
Because Amir has wisely allowed in General Audio, my suggested "Thread control" exactly as described here.
That will be enforced in this thread.
Now, the first of 2 articles, posted just 3 days ago on AH:
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation
This covers a wealth of information and misinformation that permeates acoustic discussions on many audio forums and also nicely addresses some of the mud constantly slung at Toole regarding his "beliefs".:)
It will not make some believers happy.:D I almost think Floyd has snuck a peek here once in a while.
Please read and discuss. At some point down the road, hopefully when the discussion has progressed long enough without the usual morass, then Amir can move to the proper Acoustics forum, so that future readers can browse without being bogged down in the standard pervasive nonsense fill.

cheers,

AJ
 

Purité Audio

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Intersting collection of articles, I hadnt realised that the spectra of frequency absorption is based on the angle of incidence .
Centre channels would seem to be agood thing, as would variable output loudspeakers, and absorption of first lateral reflections would appear to be a matter of taste.
Or are you just insinuating that we are just all old and deaf, which is after all probably true.
Keith.
 

Phelonious Ponk

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Ok, a recent thread about panel speaker measurements lead me to contact Dr Floyd Toole, to discuss some issues regarding references made to the measurements. Our correspondence addressd that issue, but also lead off on a completely different tangent, one the title of this thread. Why not post in the Acoustics forum?
Because Amir has wisely allowed in General Audio, my suggested "Thread control" exactly as described here.
That will be enforced in this thread.
Now, the first of 2 articles, posted just 3 days ago on AH:
https://www.audioholics.com/room-acoustics/room-reflections-human-adaptation
This covers a wealth of information and misinformation that permeates acoustic discussions on many audio forums and also nicely addresses some of the mud constantly slung at Toole regarding his "beliefs".:)
It will not make some believers happy.:D I almost think Floyd has snuck a peek here once in a while.
Please read and discuss. At some point down the road, hopefully when the discussion has progressed long enough without the usual morass, then Amir can move to the proper Acoustics forum, so that future readers can browse without being bogged down in the standard pervasive nonsense fill.

cheers,

AJ

I think I actually understood most of that. Thanks for the excellent link.

Tim
 

Thomas savage

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image.jpeg
image.jpeg

The stereo phantom centre pic (b)
I always though about one reflection from the side wall being treated or not in one way or another but this shows two reflections from the side wall( lateral reflections?) this ties in with my subjective listening as I treat the right speakers reflection from the right wall with a absorber but the left speakers reflection from the same right wall a little further along closer to the listening position with nothing or diffusion. Else I get a dead sound if this point is absorbed.

You guys can discuss the merits of this if indeed it has any :oops:

And yes my listening room is the poster for mental illness awareness week :D

I am a committed audio nut job or should I just be committed? I drip dry because I use my towels to stop reflections off my radiators.

Hey I needed to tell someone, that's what the doctors all say.

AJ feel free to delete this if it don't fit in with your plans... It will be a mercy killing.
 
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AJ Soundfield

AJ Soundfield

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Intersting collection of articles, I hadnt realised that the spectra of frequency absorption is based on the angle of incidence .
Absolutely. Critical party information. Related to what I was asking many moons ago https://hydrogenaud.io/index.php/topic,81708.msg711547.html#msg711547
Angle matters.:)
However, after discussing with Dr Toole, I am now absolutely clear on why that ML performed poorly in listening tests, mono or stereo.

Centre channels would seem to be agood thing, as would variable output loudspeakers, and absorption of first lateral reflections would appear to be a matter of taste.
Maybe, yes and yes.
We've know about the benefits of 3ch stereo since Bell Labs in the 30s iirc. Unfortunately, 99.99% of recorded music is 2ch stereo. It's all we have to make the chicken salad. But there is no reason not to make the best of it...and that doesn't involve more "resolution" and other such foolishness.
Yes, the whole "treatments" issue promoted by the peddlers is a matter of taste - their sighted one.

Or are you just insinuating that we are just all old and deaf, which is after all probably true.
Maybe.:)

cheers,

AJ
 
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Thomas savage

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Well, I might need help too, because like in The Sixth Sense, I'm seeing ghosts. Of your deleted posts. Must be that GA thing?
GA thing... You think the boy from sixth sense was homosexual? That why he had special powers and that's why you have special powers too.. Ok AJ I never thought about it like that, but then I never watched the film so.... :D Can't fault your openness ;)
 

Purité Audio

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T while the jury may be out over lateral reflections, everyone agrees that floor and ceiling bounce is not good.
So at least a thick carpet between you and the speakers.
BW Keith.
 

amirm

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Good to see an updated article from Dr. Toole that includes further research since his book was published. I want to bring attention to this one paragraph which may have easily been missed:

"The parallel situation in sound reproduction is that a good loudspeaker is a good loudspeaker, and its virtues are appreciated in a wide variety of rooms – except for the differences in the bass region. Section 11.3.1 in my book describes an elaborate experiment in which three excellent loudspeakers were evaluated in four different rooms. Listeners sat down in one room, went through a double-blind evaluation of the loudspeakers, with randomized location changes with repeats, and recorded their preference scores. They then moved to a different room and did it all again, and again in two more rooms. In the end, the statistical result was that the factor “loudspeaker” was highly significant: p = 0.05, and “room” was not a significant factor. The rooms were very different, but the listeners appear to have adapted to their individual characters, made the appropriate allowances, and proceeded to evaluate the loudspeakers – which they did with remarkable consistency."
Learning ins and outs of acoustics is very challenging and one that is learned over years. But the above is not. Get a great speaker that has been verified to sound good, fix the bass frequencies and you are done! This is why when people ask what is most important, I say speaker, NOT the room.

When Michael recently decided to get the JBL 4367 without listening to it, I was a bit worried. But ultimately knew that the worst case sound would still be good. That is what a well designed speaker does. No matter where you put it, it is going to sound good. Any speaker that needs a bunch of treatment and modification in the room to sound good, is not a good speaker!

Unfortunately so few speaker manufacturers perform proper evaluation of speakers that following my advice forces you down the path of very few brands. Wish that was not the case but that is where we are.
 
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AJ Soundfield

AJ Soundfield

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View attachment 915 View attachment 914
The stereo phantom centre pic (b)
I always though about one reflection from the side wall being treated or not in one way or another but this shows two reflections from the side wall( lateral reflections?) this ties in with my subjective listening as I treat the right speakers reflection from the right wall with a combi absorber with scatter plate but the left speakers reflection from the same right wall a little further along closer to the listening position with nothing or diffusion. Else I get a dead sound if this point is absorbed.
I really can't make heads or tails of what you have going on there, but it seems like very wide dispersion speakers, then a combination of absorbers and diffusers, mainly laterally. How/why that may have been decided...
As Keith notes, any floor absorption?

cheers,

AJ
 

Thomas savage

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I really can't make heads or tails of what you have going on there, but it seems like very wide dispersion speakers, then a combination of absorbers and diffusers, mainly laterally. How/why that may have been decided...
As Keith notes, any floor absorption?

cheers,

AJ
Quality shag on the floor. I just arranged by ear, stuff on the front wall/ behind speakers are broadband. Hover up bass hangover and seem to improve sound. Absorbers on side wall/ window then diffusion a little closer up the side wall. I was going to measure the room but my lap top died. Other than the bass absorbers I can take the rest out and still enjoy music, just seems more coherent with all that. But that's meaningless without measurments. Not to me but to the forum.
 
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AJ Soundfield

AJ Soundfield

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Good to see an updated article from Dr. Toole that includes further research since his book was published.
There's more to come! :)
I hope Ethan is sitting down when he reads this, maybe cuddling his cat. Much of what he believes/espouses contradicts badly here, with the usual assortment of real data.
But that's not why I posted it. It was also very surprising to find that one of the speakers that greatly influenced my direction in the late 80s early 90s, the Mirage M1, was Tooles personal speakers and one of the highest rated in blind listening tests. A near omni-directional speaker.

cheers,

AJ
 

amirm

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One more thing. If you really want to understand Dr. Toole's opinion you need to attend one of his in-person lectures. There, you get the nuances and emotions that are rightly absent from professional publications. He teaches such a class once a year at CEDIA conference. It lasts two days and is the best learning you can have in audio.
 

Thomas savage

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Excellent. But why are the speakers so close to the wall...and why do you have the audiophile shrine between them? Banish it! Or at least go low and wide...
Yea the speakers sound best there, bring them forward and they are too close. They like width, but have them wide apart but closer and this empties out the sound plus you lose bass impact. I like a kick drum to feel like a kick drum. I used to have them on the edges of that rug but then they have to be closer together and suffer from congestion. With the panels on the walls behind the speakers I suffer no ill effects from there proximity to the front wall in respect to the speakers. I have of course tried them everywhere. Periodically move them about.

Simple ic length is why it's all stacked now( it's pre to amp that's the problem as both channels from the pre come out from the same side so one ic is ok but other is too short to reach amp if spread like you say) but originally I had it all low like you say but hifi dealer said it would be better in a rack.. Lol I will end up with it spread out low again, I don't like the shrine. Oh and I will need to buy footers for the shelf as they will be direct to the floor and audiophile base charge silly amounts for these. I just can't be arsed to give them anymore money at the moment.

Strictly speaking it's the wrong way round, should be set up on the narrow wall but due to the wall construction this works best.. Again it's been all ways at one time or another.

I have also had absorbers on the ceiling and diffusion too but this sounded... Weird, dead and wrong to me. The shag is enough Imo. Also on the floor too... Nurse
 
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Phelonious Ponk

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Best thread on the forum ends with "Like ya momma." :) Pity to displace it...

Tim
 
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