What do floor standers really bring to the table?

[MakeMineVinyl]

Must do a great job with your emasculated vinyl bass, rumble, and any warped records..

Most of my listening, at least that in which I expect deep bass, is digital.

Still, the turntable doesn't get affected by feedback or bass coupling because the plinth is so massive and physically decoupled - this despite the phono preamp having no high pass filter in the bass region.

 

[Pearljam5000]

Psychologically my brain tells me to like the bigger Revel floorstander with more drivers
But I actually like the Focals here more

 

[Chrispy]

For a while I bought in to that line of thinking often preached by subwoofer enthusiasts and tried dual subwoofers with my floor standing speakers (rated 35 Hz – 20 kHz). I personally didn't find they added much at all, and I actually preferred the sound of my speakers without the subs (hence I finally sold the subs, crossover, etc). So I did indeed find my floor standing speakers "ok" without subs.

YMMV, of course.

By with your speakers you mean next to them or you tried various positions in the room for the subs to work best? Bass management was employed?

 

[Destination: Moon]

Psychologically my brain tells me to like the bigger Revel floorstander with more drivers
But I actually like the Focals here more

Off topic but can you really hear what speakers sound like via a recording of those speakers - played through another, third set of speakers??? Seems far fetched? (I'm counting the mic as the second speakers)

 

[Chrispy]

I find videos of audio pretty much useless. Generally I watch most videos on my laptop , but even when I do watch a video on one of my systems thru other means, I still can't imagine trying to determine what other speakers sound what with the quality/consistency of a recording let alone that room's influence vs my own etc, let alone what someone like youtube will do to it....

 

[MattHooper]

By with your speakers you mean next to them or you tried various positions in the room for the subs to work best? Bass management was employed?

Yes and yes. (DSP via Dspeaker Anti Mode Dual Core 2). (JL subs, spec'd to 25Hz)

I went through this on another thread so won't repeat myself. Basically I found little audible benefit to adding the subs in terms of noticeable bass extension, "lack of strain," or anything much, really. A slightly flatter frequency response in the bass, but I preferred the sound of my speakers without the subs. Others may take things further in terms of the technical aspects and effort (I'm often amazed how much time and effort some people spend on integrating subwoofers! Like a part time job!). It was as far as I was willing to go for trying out subwoofers and the effort involved. That's why I mentioned YMMV.

 

[theyellowspecial]

I'd be interested in say a high-quality 3-way standmount (or floorstander) that made no attempt to go below say 60 Hz (since I'd use a sub), but I don't believe such things exist?

Some seemed to be tuned that way (read Aria 906 review, for example). However, does it really matter with such powerful EQ tools nowadays?

EDIT: Nevermind, Aria 906 not a three-way.

 

[Chrispy]

Yes and yes. (DSP via Dspeaker Anti Mode Dual Core 2). (JL subs, spec'd to 25Hz)

I went through this on another thread so won't repeat myself. Basically I found little audible benefit to adding the subs in terms of noticeable bass extension, "lack of strain," or anything much, really. A slightly flatter frequency response in the bass, but I preferred the sound of my speakers without the subs. Others may take things further in terms of the technical aspects and effort (I'm often amazed how much time and effort some people spend on integrating subwoofers! Like a part time job!). It was as far as I was willing to go for trying out subwoofers and the effort involved. That's why I mentioned YMMV.

Thanks, just curious, if I read your use details in another thread I'd forgotten anyways.

 

[Head_Unit]

Bass response and you can't knock the speaker off the stand.

^^^^^ this

Small children and mind-altered adults can do catastrophic damage! Speaking from sad experience.

Er, speaking from sad (but not fatal!) experience, towers are hardly immune either. Actuall we've been wondering how to anchor our Focal 936 against earthquakes without looking ugly.

 

[BrokenEnglishGuy]

Before I answer your question, I'd like to make a general observation about this thread. I've read all the posts and I see that a lot of pro-tower answers go on about other things besides the enclosure itself. Perhaps it would be better to refer to a specific model of the speakers which differ only in the enclosure (floorstander vs. bookshelf). There are many such speakers where a bookshelf has it's exact match in floorstander as if a bookshelf was popped into a bigger box. This would focus the debate to one difference that OP put in his question. Something like; all other things being exactly the same, what would you benefit from getting a tower speaker. (OK, I know all other things are not the same, if the box is bigger, f3 is tuned differently and the x-over is never exactly the same, but let's say that's the minimum of differences).

I'm saying this bc there ARE very well made, genuine, 3way bookshelf speakers, so number of the drivers is not the main issue. Let's talk mostly about the volume of the enclosure and what it brings to the table.

@storing Few things do come to mind, but I would immediately agree that it has to do with the quality of the product as well. Having said that, I don't think it's all about SPL. A small-smallish room of hard walls might give such a bump to your low region that you have to attenuate it almost all the way with some speakers that have an otherwise good low region. So saying 40% (it's a number from the top of my head only to serve the point in question) might refer to other properties of your speaker. It would mean you bought a speaker that does exceptionally well in the 40-60 range only to have to take it all the way down.

Of course, it's mostly practicality and cost, but then again every overkill is. Still, there IS such a thing as overkill.

I have a R7 in a smallish room.
I have to do a -10dB at 88hz because i have a peak in that frequency... talking about the sub bass, i don't hear roll off and i need to use the '' o '' foam rings in the port because its too much sub, when i change to my headphones who are flat at 20hz with EQi don't feel like my towers are missing a important thing.. subjectively.
But yeah in a large place its better cross the tower at 80hz and add dual subs

 

[tuga]

Cabinet volume, more baffle space for a 3-way and a woofer array.
Potential for higher SPL capability, for lower HD and IMD, for deeper bass extension, to reduce floor bounce cancellation.

 

[Frgirard]

Aside from higher SPLs, what real listening advantage do towers have over the better measuring bookshelfs, if any?

The book shelf = cancelation in bass frequencies due to the distance floor-woofer called SBIR

 

[Promit]

Fundamentally, I don't believe in the 80 Hz crossover that is considered the "default value" for the localization boundary. IMO this creates significant subwoofer output in the localizable frequency range, and makes an overall mess of the imaging. Ideally I'd like to cross my fronts at least down at 60 if not lower, which requires substantial output in the 40 range from the speaker. That's nearly impossible to get from a standmount, especially if you need real output level behind it.

Secondarily, I also feel that a three way design (which does exist in stand mounts, to be fair), provides better mid-bass performance. The trick is getting the crossovers right and keeping woofer resonances under control. If you can accomplish that, I am all about 2.5/3 way speakers.

 

[Chromatischism]

I find the whole subwoofer thing too hard to get right; either overpowering or ineffective.

Indeed, it can take quite a bit of time tweaking to find just the right balance. I am very sensitive to it, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

Very small changes in subwoofer frequency response, extension, location, delays, EQ, level, filter slope, and crossover points affect system balance in very audible ways.

If you can get it right, it's bliss. I'm not convinced that many floor-standing speakers at nearly any price can match what I've put together with stand-mounted speakers and subs unless I needed >90-95 dB SPL. Which, I don't at this stage.

Floorstanders can sound "bigger" if they are using multiple drivers but pinpoint imaging may suffer.

 

[Chromatischism]

Fundamentally, I don't believe in the 80 Hz crossover that is considered the "default value" for the localization boundary. IMO this creates significant subwoofer output in the localizable frequency range, and makes an overall mess of the imaging. Ideally I'd like to cross my fronts at least down at 60 if not lower, which requires substantial output in the 40 range from the speaker. That's nearly impossible to get from a standmount, especially if you need real output level behind it.

It is very system and room dependent. In my current setup, every time I try 80 Hz, I end up going back to 60 Hz due to how much clearer the overall sound is. At 80 things get a little congested for the reasons you mention. And this is with optimized frequency response - you can't see the differences there.

There are a few stand-mount speakers that can do that without strain.

70 Hz would be a good value for many but for whatever reason is not an option on Denon AVRs.

 

[Chromatischism]

Another thing that is critical here and not touched on much is content.

If someone says "subs didn't add much to my system" then they aren't watching action movies or they don't listen to music with low bass. And that's fine, but it's a crucial qualifier.

 

[MattHooper]

Another thing that is critical here and not touched on much is content.

If someone says "subs didn't add much to my system" then they aren't watching action movies or they don't listen to music with low bass. And that's fine, but it's a crucial qualifier.

FWIW. I listen to plenty of music with low bass (tons of funk, R&B and electronica, for instance). And I played plenty of that music when testing out my subwoofers.

(As for action movies, I use a different speaker set up for my home theater. Even there I don't use a sub and don't miss it at all).

Again, this is all going to be subjective. What you may miss or like, I might not. I may be going for a different sound than you.

 

[Chromatischism]

Right. If you want to feel the movie, that is, 30 Hz and down to 10 Hz, clearly there is only one way to get there.

But that same solution adds to my music, as well. If I engage my rumble filter and attenuate energy below 20 Hz, I like it less. That has shown me how important extension is for all of my content.

Besides my stand-mounts, as potent as they are, would never get below about 30 Hz without reduced output.

 

[Ultrasonic]

For context, my personal experience with high-pass filtering floorstanding speakers has been with a 2-way design. My general take on subwoofers is to encourage people to give them a go and make up their own mind, rather than pushing them as the 'best' way to go for everyone.

Fundamentally, I don't believe in the 80 Hz crossover that is considered the "default value" for the localization boundary. IMO this creates significant subwoofer output in the localizable frequency range, and makes an overall mess of the imaging. Ideally I'd like to cross my fronts at least down at 60 if not lower, which requires substantial output in the 40 range from the speaker. That's nearly impossible to get from a standmount, especially if you need real output level behind it.

Rather than just focusing on the crossover frequency it is important to also factor in the slope of the filters. The steeper the filters the higher the crossover can be. I'd also say it's worth consdering the in-room frequency response (amplitude and phase) of both the main speakers and subwoofer when choosing the crossover frequency, rather than just sticking with a pre-determined value.

 

[pseudoid]

to "What do floor standers really bring to the table?"
The short answer that I stole (from elsewhere + on your behalf) goes like this >> "In the broadest sense, all else being equal, certain, larger dimension enclosures with certain HxWxD ratios can enhance specific low frequency characteristics."
DISCLAIMER: All things being equal and I really am not trying to incite a big argument here.