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What do floor standers really bring to the table?

Floorstanders vs standmount/bookshelf speakers+ a sub
Which is better?
I’m by no means an expert, and I am trying only to summarize my understanding of this thread, so please someone correct anything I say that may be wrong. But, a system with a properly integrated sub is always going to be better than a system without, whether that system be made with floorstanders or bookshelves.

As has been stated, the ideal position for bass is seldom, if ever, the same position as the mains. So even if a pair of floorstanders extends deep into the bass range, you may not be hearing the full effect of this due to other characteristics such as room modes.

The question would need to be made as equal as possible, and even then it’s difficult to pose because there are differences between manufacturers and model ranges. One might ask, floorstanders with subs vs. bookshelves with subs, same model range/family/design philosophy, which one is always objectively better? And even that may not be a realistic question unless every single other factor (such as room, positioning, etc.) is the same, given my understanding of what’s been said in this thread.

I think this is what most people are trying to ask when they pose this question on this forum. As we see, it’s a lot harder to answer than it ostensibly seems.
 
One thing that’s going to affect your perspective where you place the crossover between the sub and main speaker.
Some prefer 80Hz or lower to avoid localization. Towers may be preferred in such a situation.
Some prefer to cross at, say, 100Hz or higher to reduce distortion in the mains and/or allow for higher output for the bass frequencies. Here, I would expect less of an advantage for towers, and audible differences between towers vs. stand mount may be little or non existent.
And if you have room for only one sub, I expect that would skew the advantage toward towers.
 
A bookshelf speaker in an actual bookshelf needs very careful implementation to avoid nasty sonic side effects.

Not that critical, me thinks. That negative spikes you show are irrelevant compared to other room influences.

First (because I wasn't understood):
- tune the frequency response for the direct sound to be flat => bass / lower mids are missing in the reverberant field
- tune the frequency response for the Harman tilt in reverberant field => bass / lower mids are too prominent in the direct sound

This is because the shelf acts like an infinite baffle in contrast to the 'baffle step' with free standing boxes. Maybe this is why Harman's prference score is not specific in regard to the slope of the tilt. The problem, though, remains.

Second:
- a shelf mount speaker is regularly not toe'd in. When listening in the prescribed stereo triangle the speakers would be listened to in angle of 30° referring to the baffles
- to steer, or direct the sound to the listener isn't a viable option
- directivity is either rather wide, which again conflicts with the Harman tilt
- or the frequency response is tuned to flat at 30°, which poses an even deeper problem with the Harman tilt due to the then logical excess on 0°

I won't discuss this in 'scientific' depth, only that you guys understand the real prob's with shelf mount speakers o_O You easily get there once you DIY such a thing ...
 
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Not that critical, me thinks. That negative spikes you show are irrelevant compared to other room influences.
That statement puts you at odds with Dr Toole. He says, describing the graphs, “a perfectly good little loudspeaker has been seriously compromised by the installation. There is evidence of high-Q cavity resonances and diffraction effects created by the edges of the cavity. The everyday remedy of filling the cavity with absorbing material helps, but the root problem is still in evidence.

Apologies, it’s my fault because I didn’t provide you enough contextual information for you to draw the conclusion you wrote above. Both the graphs are quite compromised, the ‘empty shelf’ even more seriously. (I often contribute snippets of Toole Wisdom to audio threads, but I always assume readers recognise that it is just a tiny snippet, and what readers of these snippets really need to do is…..Buy The Book! Read all around the snippets! So much to learn by so doing! :) )

BTW the second part that I put in bold that you wrote above is also at odds with one of Dr Toole’s core lessons: problems in the direct sound will never be irrelevant compared to other room influences that affect reflected sound. Direct sound problems will always be the primary, dominant problem.

cheers
 
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That statement puts you at odds with Dr Toole.
Why should that be a problem? I probably appreciate his work more than you might imagine, but it isn't gospel for me.

Anyway, closely packed, surrounding books would only shift the location of the defect higher in frequency. I tested it ;-)

Finally, I tried to convince us to acknowledge some other problems with shelf mounting. Not that I'm overly concerned about it, but as a DIYer I try to comply to the self-stated mission. For fun and learning. So far I'm quite satisfied with what I already accomplished. Only that I don't feel self confident enough to present the results on this board due to lack of understanding and some quite competitive spirit--combined :(
 
This is really uncharitable if not downright unpleasant. From what I’ve seen, people are simply intimidated or find software solutions highly technical and thus unapproachable. Changing cables, while ineffective, is something that anyone can do.
Also, keep in mind Minidsp Flex type systems have only been available at reasonable cost for a few years if that. This is the only architecture I'd consider. I use an Onkyo PR-SC886 but find that it sounds much better in "direct" mode with DSP bypassed. The Onkyo has a similar architecture as the Flex. I'd like to see Minidsp make at least one more generation of improvements before I jump on. Mainly bit length of the DSP. I like BluRay audio.

Furthermore, many audiophiles like vinyl over digital.
 
When it comes to floorstand vs sat\sub. It's really hard to beat the low distortion of a 15" woofer. Just look at HIFICompass and VoiceCoil measurements. A DIYer can integrate a 15 with a modern 1.5" CD and cover smooth frequency response, phase response, off access response with low distortion without DSP. There're only a few small, very recent woofers to compete. Of course, the costs are high at 3500-5000 and several weeks of spare time for these projects. I would bet a nice 6 pack that the 15 has a more enjoyable mid bass punch than a 6.5".
 
While I wouldn't use one on a table (unless a very very big table - like say, one used to keep a dictator separated from his underlings) they bring a renewed beauty and freshness to the floor.

drum-sander.jpg
 
While I wouldn't use one on a table (unless a very very big table - like say, one used to keep a dictator separated from his underlings) they bring a renewed beauty and freshness to the floor.

That is definitely a sweet vintage floor sander!

Edit: To the point of the thread, all else equal, bigger boxes equals more better.
 
In my case I have 2 subs, RZ59 using Dirac Live and with 2 channel music the subs almost never even turn on (auto sense), as there is very little material below 80 Hz. So the F208s do all the heavy lifting.
 
In my case I have 2 subs, RZ59 using Dirac Live and with 2 channel music the subs almost never even turn on (auto sense), as there is very little material below 80 Hz. So the F208s do all the heavy lifting.
Cluster / Business Process Mapping / (1) Ethnographer
The Residents / Triple Trouble / (1) Lost Inside A Soul: Confession

but also

Sly And The Familiy Stone / There Is A Riot Going On / (11) Running Away

Especially with the latter, how would that system with 'auto sense' ever preserve the meaning of a sudden inset of deep bass? O/k, I just like the piece,. It's deliberately made to sound funky o/k on people's radio receiver and likewise to blame hifi-buffs.

I'm not advocating huge effort for the deepest bass notes. You can have it with even tiny boxes once the limitations of the most cost effective two-way are understood and overcome. Just add a midrange, and together with the Linkwitz transform it is all there.
 
In my case I have 2 subs, RZ59 using Dirac Live and with 2 channel music the subs almost never even turn on (auto sense), as there is very little material below 80 Hz. So the F208s do all the heavy lifting.
That surprises me a bit? Are you using vinyl sources a lot?
Running all digital here and I don't remember not seeing my 2 SVS subs turn on.
I've got Audyssey set to Small for my JBL towers and crossover at 80hz?
 
In my case I have 2 subs, RZ59 using Dirac Live and with 2 channel music the subs almost never even turn on (auto sense), as there is very little material below 80 Hz. So the F208s do all the heavy lifting.
This sounds straight up broken to me. Crossovers aren't dynamic load balancers. So even if you "don't have that much content at 80hz", you're missing half of it if your subs are off. And 80hz content isn't uncommon at all, pretty much ANYTHING with a male voice will have a peak in that region for example. Do your subs turn on when watching a male YouTuber talking head video? If the answer is yes, then you're OK and just listen to really bass-absent content. If they don't, then your setup's broken.

E: Unless your speakers are set to Large, if they are then the subs should never turn on at all for 2.0.
 
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That surprises me a bit? Are you using vinyl sources a lot?
Running all digital here and I don't remember not seeing my 2 SVS subs turn on.
I've got Audyssey set to Small for my JBL towers and crossover at 80hz?
No. Mostly streaming from Qobuz. My F208's are set to full range/large so I assume only frequencies below 80 Hz are being sent to the subs. Even if they turn on when placing my hand on the drivers they rarely are vibrating. And if they do it's very low in volume/intensity. With the RZ50 "stereo" only outputs to the L/R and subs in my configuration.
 
This sounds straight up broken to me. Crossovers aren't dynamic load balancers. So even if you "don't have that much content at 80hz", you're missing half of it if your subs are off. And 80hz content isn't uncommon at all, pretty much ANYTHING with a male voice will have a peak in that region for example. Do your subs turn on when watching a male YouTuber talking head video? If the answer is yes, then you're OK and just listen to really bass-absent content. If they don't, then your setup's broken.

E: Unless your speakers are set to Large, if they are then the subs should never turn on at all for 2.0.
With the RZ50 the subs are automatically active in "stereo" mode.
 
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