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What do floor standers really bring to the table?

Here's one I can think of quickly:


Neumann KH 310A was a really good speaker.:)

Neumann KH 310A is the top ten of the Amir speakers tested. It was sealed the remaining nine in the top ten are ported.
What I saw on a quick check. I may have missed someone.
 

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It was a really good speaker.:)

Is in the top ten of the Amir testst. It was sealed the remaining nine in the top ten are ported.

It's a simple fact there are far more ported standmount speakers, I assume because it's the cheaper way to get more bass extension.

(Selfishly I wish there was a version of the KH310 with the drivers vertically arranged, as the horizontal arrangement isn't well-suited to domestic use. In my lounge anyway!)
 
For balance, here is a sealed design with rather less stellar measured performance. I don't think the limitaions relate to a lack of port though!


Off the top of my head the only sealed speakers I can confdently remember hearing are ATC's SCM40 mk2s, both active and passive. These are floorstanding speakers though.
 
Well, we might wright it of as a bad communication. It sure sounded as if you're trying to imply that people with confined resources ate them away. That they ate the difference in standard. Even as a proverb it sounded quite wrong. There are many forces that can keep you in a bad place. Some of them stronger than others. If the solution was as easy as "if your house is too small, move to a bigger one", or "if the money is tight to mention, eat less", no one would be in a tight spot.
One should probably beware of translating proverbs directly. I should have said instead: be happy with what you have.
The saying also means not living beyond one's means ..and happy with with what you have.

Of course I understand that there are few who can move anytime anywhere they want. I can 't do that anyway.
 
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It's a simple fact there are far more ported standmount speakers, I assume because it's the cheaper way to get more bass extension.

(Selfishly I wish there was a version of the KH310 with the drivers vertically arranged, as the horizontal arrangement isn't well-suited to domestic use. In my lounge anyway!)
That may well be the case. Price and performance. The sound that sells best is weighed in the choice of solution for the designer. I guess.:)
 
I referred to the impulse response which by definition includes all frequencies. I suspect you were thinking about looking at decay on a waterfall plot here? There are waterfall plots on data-bass.com too if you want to have a look. As one comparison from there, here's an SVS SB13-Ultra (sealed) followed by different modes of the SVS PB13-Ultra (ported):

06faed30-d7c4-11e8-b929-a12fec349f9b.jpg

140c0000-d63d-11e8-abcf-331ce06ba681.jpg


fc79c260-d63c-11e8-abcf-331ce06ba681.jpg


And finally here's what the PB13-Ultra looks like when run in sealed mode (all ports stuffed):

31d3bfb0-d63d-11e8-abcf-331ce06ba681.jpg


I'll be interested in what the meaurement experts here think but from a quick look I suspect this one example does support the notion that the significant difference is in region where the is dominant contribution from the port.


Sources: https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5bd0c4ea20120c00040a9bed?_k=yf4lqu
https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5b11c1e3a201f10004e39d67?_k=2fg9uy
The difference in decay is not directly related to whether it has ports or not, it is simply a result of the roll-off slope and q - if the sealed is eq-ed to match the frequency response of the ported, the waterfall will look exactly similar. Or - if the ported was tuned differently with a lower q, it would be like the sealed.

However, large-signal behavior will be different - a well-designed ported design with a good driver will have more output capacity and lower distortion.

A low-q sealed will usually be equalized for extended flat response, and then ends up with a similar decay pattern with a resonance at roll-off. Such eq even has a name - the Linkwitz Transform.

But those waterfalls and resonances at roll-off become less important when you place the speaker in a room. Resonances and modes induced from the room boundaries creates much larger group delays and resonances, and what you end up with after equalization on the bass-system is more of a result from chosen target and what the room does.

Since eq is mandatory on a high-performance bass-system, small-signal behavior is not so important as capacity and large-signal behavior. And then it makes good sense to choose some sort of ported design, to improve those properties which can not be changed using eq.
 
In order to properly experience bass it must be corrected for the room. Usually that means at least 2 subs with proper placement, delays and EQ applied. You can get lucky with 1, but it's rare.

Oh, I have absolutely no problem experiencing bass. You can feel kickdrums in the walls. And they handle the first 4 bars of this admirably, one of my go-to test tracks... They just don't give quite the rumble one gets from a well tuned system that includes subwoofers in a modern Hollywood action movie...

The "matching" subs for these speakers would be the CLS-15S. They have a frequency response of 25Hz to 40-150Hz (depending on the crossover setting). My mains are good down to 28Hz. (all manufacturer specs).

How much of my music selection is really going to benefit from those 3Hz? I didn't say the sub made it sound worse, I simply said that no matter what I did, I never got the sub to add anything, other than cost (at least, nothing that added to the listening experience). I had always suspected [when I owned a CLS-15S] that I was simply moving the load from one voice coil to another, but the output was effectively the same regardless [at least from an enjoyment perspective at 93-96dB]. Perhaps the track doesn't contain much below that, perhaps my room is helping, perhaps a phase problem is eating the low frequencies, perhaps my hearing sucks...
 
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Took one at random.
Oh, right, you chose the Revel at random! Sure, whatevs.

I don't know why Amir didn't measure the port seperately, maybe that's something he's only started doing more recently. The port distortion is very well controlled in the Revel, but the raggedness in the THD between 1 and 2 kHZ is likely port generated. (We can't tell without a port measurement.)

Anyway, it's the phase shift issue and subwoofer integration that's my main complaint with ported bookshelf speakers.

And Amir hasn't measured any sealed ones, because there are so very few to measure.
 
The true answer is "nothing" because some floorstanders don't even output higher SPLs than some bookshelves, for example there's no way a Kef R5 is ever going to compete with a Genelec 8361A in terms of SPL.

However, *some designs of floorstanders* can:
  • control directivity to lower frequencies due to the use of larger woofers(ie, they turn omnidirectional at lower frequencies).
  • reduce the impact of SBIR and/or room modes due to having multiple woofers closer to the floor and spaced out.
Also, some people think they look nicer than bookshelves on a stand.

In theory, bolded could just as easily be a negative. More woofers could potentially introduce broader issues that are more audible while a single woofer might introduce more narrow higher Q issues that are less audible or easier to EQ.
 
Oh, right, you chose the Revel at random! Sure, whatevs.

I don't know why Amir didn't measure the port seperately, maybe that's something he's only started doing more recently. The port distortion is very well controlled in the Revel, but the raggedness in the THD between 1 and 2 kHZ is likely port generated. (We can't tell without a port measurement.)

Anyway, it's the phase shift issue and subwoofer integration that's my main complaint with ported bookshelf speakers.

And Amir hasn't measured any sealed ones, because there are so very few to measure.
Okay I admit. It was not entirely at random because the thesis was well constructed. Then I had to take a well constructed.It would have been rather pointless to take a poorly constructed.
Now it does not matter what I took, because it reportedly applied to every ported. Incidentally, all speakers, regardless of construction type, create distortion. The question is just what is preferable?

A poorly constructed ported has probably all heard at some point. When it clearly sounds audible bad from the port. But they are not interesting to consider.

There are not that many sealed to test. Why do you think this is the case?Of the ten top speakers Amir tested, one is closed, by the way

In any case, it is interesting that Amir
nowadays measures the port itself.

Near-field response shows very good control of cabinet / port resonances which we almost always find to be a problem with front-ported speakers.



Near-field response? Microphone placed how? The new way to measure compared to when Amir did not do so when he measured distortion on ported speakers before, is?
Has Amir performed a Near-field response on a sealed speaker?

How many sealed subwoofers has Amir tested, measured?

Speaking of phase. I thought this was interesting.:)

Does Phase Distortion / Shift Matter in Audio? (no *)

 
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The difference in decay is not directly related to whether it has ports or not, it is simply a result of the roll-off slope and q - if the sealed is eq-ed to match the frequency response of the ported, the waterfall will look exactly similar. Or - if the ported was tuned differently with a lower q, it would be like the sealed.

I'm not sure if you saw my earlier post where I discussed my experience applying EQ to match the response of a sealed and ported sub?

Regarding Q, does the choice of a sealed or ported design place limitations on the Q that is possible, or that is typically used? My hunch is that sealed subs tend to be lower Q and this leads to real-world sound differences...

Edit: I referred to subwoofers here but presumably the same arguments would carry over to full-range speakers.
 
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You come from neighboring Norway and make speakers Do you not know a consultant I-or? He who worked on developing speaker elements for a Danish manufacturer. Know people at Genelec. I-or:
A slit port then. However, Genelec has not really done the right thing in terms of flow mechanics

(...)

You can always register at Faktiskt. I-or is usually there so you can ask him.

Cool speakers by the way.:)

I don't have any specific questions to anyone on this topic, and thanks. :)
 
I see it the following way.

Floorstanders will work satisfyingly well even without subs in many situations (bass < 40hz not required). Therefore, it is very understandable that people just have floorstanders and are totally happy.

Bookshelfs +subs can give you the exact same experience as floorstanders + subs in many situations. Only when the listening distance is larger than 4m or when the room is larger than 3000 cubic feet the bookshelfs can run out of steam and floorstanders + subs will be beneficial.

Bookshelfs +subs can give you a better experience than floorstanders wo subs if you get the integration right and the listening distance is not larger than 4m. If you have a large room you would definitely need large floorstanders and large subs.

The revel salon 2s (https://www.revelspeakers.com/products/types/floorstanding/Salon2-.html) have only a sinlge 6.5 inch woofer that handles 150hz to 575 hz. I have never heard the salon2s, but I am sure they play incredibly loud even in large rooms. Thus a good bookshelf with a single 6.5 inch woofer can give you all the mid bass you need if you cross it over a bit over 80hz. The area between 80 and 200 hz is what limits the output of a bookshelf with a single 6.5 inch woofer. But if your listening distance and the room size is not that large you will be totally fine.

I run Kef R3s (xo at 100hz) with two SB2000. My listening distance is 2.5m and my room is 2700 cubic feet. The experience is totally awesome. There is no need for floorstanders for me.
 
Some practical aspects of bookshelf vs. floorstanding.

Partly extra cost of speaker stand, partly if the bookshelf speakers are placed on stands they take up about as much space as a floorstanding. Then why not take advantage of all the space and choose a flooorstanding? The possibility that a floorstanding (vs bookshelf) are digging deeper in the base area increases.:)
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Whilst the floor space used may be comparable when smaller floorstanding speakers are considered, standmounts are generally less visually imposing due to the supports of the stands being narrower (or with gaps).
 
Regarding Q, does the choice of a sealed or ported design place limitations on the Q that is possible, or that is typically used? My hunch is that sealed subs tend to be lower Q and this leads to real-world sound differences...
If you include the low end roll off yes. If you don't, Q is the same.
 
I'm not sure if you saw my earlier post where I discussed my experience applying EQ to match the response of a sealed and ported sub?

Regarding Q, does the choice of a sealed or ported design place limitations on the Q that is possible, or that is typically used? My hunch is that sealed subs tend to be lower Q and this leads to real-world sound differences...

Edit: I referred to subwoofers here but presumably the same arguments would carry over to full-range speakers.
Q can be similar, it is a result of driver parameters and cabinet tuning. But - generally, sealed tend to have lower q - they roll-off nice and slow. The important difference is that standard ported is 4. order, while sealed is 2. order, and this makes for a quite large difference in phase shift and ringing - before any eq is applied.

Ported has different requirements for driver parameters compared to sealed. For subwoofers, this is important, because acoustic loading from a port can then enable choice of a driver with overall better characteristics.

For a full-range speaker, ports for low f extension can be problematic. The port creates design challenges to avoid unwanted leakage up in the midrange due to port resonance and internal cabinet resonances. Because the port will no longer work well if the inside of the cabinet is damped to hard, there are also problems with controlling internal cabinet resonances and reflections.
 
Whilst the floor space used may be comparable when smaller floorstanding speakers are considered, standmounts are generally less visually imposing due to the supports of the stands being narrower (or with gaps).
They are generally, imho, less visually pleasing than floorstanding and are also generally less stable.
 
Speaking of phase. I thought this was interesting.:)

Does Phase Distortion / Shift Matter in Audio? (no *)

Does this video address the issue of subwoofer integration (without DSP) with a main speaker with large phase shift, as all ported speakers have? (no*)

And if you think phase shift between two different speakers doesn't matter, why don't you reverse the wires on one of your main speakers and listen to your system that way? It won't matter, right?
 
Does this video address the issue of subwoofer integration (without DSP) with a main speaker with large phase shift, as all ported speakers have? (no*)

And if you think phase shift between two different speakers doesn't matter, why don't you reverse the wires on one of your main speakers and listen to your system that way? It won't matter, right?
It matters.

It was just Interesting, I think:)
A tip in general regarding phase.
How the sound in a normal listening room bounces, reflexes and the phase that is not audible, what one can not detect.

There is a difference between absolute and relative phase.
Amir's headline on the video might have been a bit misleading, or you might think it applies to every type of phase. Amir clarified in the thread associated with the video:

Amir:
I was very clear in the video on this. That phase can matter if you understand the context of the discussion, e.g. sub versus main blending, etc. The purpose of video was specific to Paul's video which had nothing to do with this.

 
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