What do expensive speakers sound like?

[NicC]

Accurate large bass drivers are very expensive to design and manufacture

I did not know this, or indeed expect it. And after some research, I was amazed at what is needed to achieve a great 10 or 12” bass driver. I thought it was just a bigger 5” driver And of course, it makes sense considering the work required of them.

 

[NicC]

a nice dry-aged steak

I do have a butcher I go to with a dry age cabinet. I will put a couple of his steaks on my next grocery list

 

[sigbergaudio]

Increased capacity is one of the great benefits of larger and more expensive speakers. A lot of people think they're "overpowering the room" or their ears when they turn up the sound and it sounds like crap.

If you have a very reflective room, this may to some extent be the case. But just as likely it's your speakers giving up.

It's actually possible to play decently recorded tracks at 110dB+ at the listening position in a moderately damped room and still get clean, undistorted playback that doesn't sound harsh. But it's not free.

 

[NicC]

I’m certainly learning a lot reading all the replies. I find it interesting and value each one of them. I’m sensing that if you travel far enough along the curve of diminishing returns, you can experience something extraordinary. I appreciate now that designing a big driver that sounds good, can last for years and doesn’t distort is not a cheap exercise. And of course to fetch premium price, a company is virtually obliged to make the exterior match the cost. And of course provide expensive cables that can carry the premium sound. Wink wink. One of the first things I learned on ASR was about cables. Thanks for the discourse everybody.
Actually, now that I tried to make a joke of it, I need to ask, do such massive speakers require heavier gauge wires or such?

 

[Bjorn]

There are few expensive speakers that are really good IMO. High price is means to fool customers to think quality is high.

As a matter of fact, in many circles you have price really high to be taken seriously.

If the goal is truly high quality sound one has to look elsewhere than to the luxury market.

That being said; something needs to cost considerably more due to size, expensive beryllium drivers, etc.
There's no way I could for example sell the system below cheap and still make money. Production cost is high for something like this

 

[kemmler3D]

I've been to a couple HiFi shows and my experiences are similar to @Keith_W and @Waxx. I've heard some $$$ systems that sounded fine, but mostly just like okay speakers in a crappy room.

Price tags don't affect the sound*. Room, treatment, placement, and calibration do.

*Unless you've seen the price tag and placebo kicks in...

 

[kemmler3D]

, do such massive speakers require heavier gauge wires or such?

Not really, no. For really high power PA stuff you do want robust connectors (speakon) but that's to ensure a solid connection that won't randomly get unplugged.

Consider that any old power cord in your house carries higher voltage than pretty much any speaker cable. Also consider that the (relatively tiny) wires inside the speaker itself need to carry that voltage and current without melting.

The giant speaker cables are just for show.

 

[Bjorn]

Actually, now that I tried to make a joke of it, I need to ask, do such massive speakers require heavier gauge wires or such?

If you're going to run slot of power through speakers, wire gauge needs to increase. Also with longer lengths. But generally 2,5mm2 (a bit less than 14 AWG) is plenty for almost anything.

With large horn speakers one needs less power to play loud, so no need for thick gauge there.

Extreme thick cables is just for looks.

 

[kemmler3D]

designing a big driver that sounds good, can last for years and doesn’t distort is not a cheap exercise.

On this point, it's also important to take into account economies of scale and the costs associated with large physical objects.

Big speakers can achieve qualities of sound that small ones can't.
.

To @Bjorns point , big speakers inherently cost more to build.

The large size also sharply increases shipping cost. Something as big as the set in the photo might cost hundreds or more to ship.


They also take up a lot of space and so that reduces the market for them sharply. Even if people have the money they don't usually want to dedicate that much space

A small market means the per unit cost goes up sharply. The unit cost difference between a 50 unit and 50k unit manufacturing run can be 10x. This applies to parts going into the speakers as well as the finished units.

So when we are talking giant speakers that cost $100k or something, the actual electronic parts might only cost 5-10x a $1k speaker. The cost isn't driven primarily by performance related factors (parts, engineering) but logistics, missing economies of scale due to the niche market, dealer margin, luxury pricing, and relatively high overhead.

I Think there's an attitude that super high end speaker pricing is a scam somehow because the performance isn't commensurate with price at all. But to a greater extent than people realize, it's just really expensive to build 7' tall, 200lb, finely finished pieces of precision-built electro-furniture in small batches.

Or to put it another way, making 10,000 of something small or medium instead of 10 of something huge pushes the unit cost down more than you might expect.

 

[Bjorn]

Another major reason for the common high price tag today is marketing. For a big brand, large amounts go into marketing in hifi magazines, being at most hifi exhibitions, etc.
It's also a way to partially buy good reviews. It's common for deals between the parties.

 

[kemmler3D]

Another major reason for the common high price tag today is marketing. For a big brand, large amounts go into marketing in hifi magazines, being at most hifi exhibitions, etc.
It's also a way to partially buy good reviews. It's common for deals between the parties.

Very true, but would you say the percentage of revenue allocated to marketing (advertising, events) is more than (say) 20-40%? I ask because directionally, this is certainly true for mainstream or even cheap gear, but I don't have direct experience marketing anything outside of consumer / mainstream audio gear.

 

[Bjorn]

Very true, but would you say the percentage of revenue allocated to marketing (advertising, events) is more than (say) 20-40%? I ask because directionally, this is certainly true for mainstream or even cheap gear, but I don't have direct experience marketing anything outside of consumer / mainstream audio gear.

I don't know but I'm shocked by the prices I see in magazines and websites for marketing. Not to mention the cost to exhibit at some of the largere shows if you bring a small crew. But it's also possible in many cases that it brings in so much extra revenue that it becomes a plus in total or evens out the expenses. It's a great risk though for a new comer.

Would be interesting to know numbers more exact, perhaps others can share some light on this.

 

[kemmler3D]

it's also possible in many cases that it brings in so much extra revenue that it becomes a plus in total or evens out the expenses. It's a great risk though for a new comer

Agree, marketing obviously needs to pay off, but new brands don't necessarily have the reputation or historical data to know if it will.

A HiFi show will often be the last step in making a sale to a consumer or retailer, where they come in to check something out in person before pulling the trigger. (True in many industries, not just audio). So to make the show pay you have to lay groundwork via advertising, sponsorships, reviews, etc.

So for a new brand, just doing the show is a bet that you can make a big enough impression to leap ahead of known quantities. A big risk indeed!

 

[Oddball]

My experience with expensive speakers is that I know my audio memory is short, so I really count that as one hour stand . I can't remember much nowadays, except they often dazzle people, but open if someone wants to ship a pair or two for a longer term relationship. I except up to 4 pairs as there is some space limitations though.

 

[ta240]

There are few expensive speakers that are really good IMO. High price is means to fool customers to think quality is high.

Production cost is high for something like this
View attachment 455391

Of course the cost for those is high, look what they did to those two dogs that were sleeping in front of them!!

 

[Bjorn]

Of course the cost for those is high, look what they did to those two dogs that were sleeping in front of them!!

Haha, good one.
They were sheep though and killed instantly by the lightning sound.

 

[NicC]

So when we are talking giant speakers that cost $100k or something, the actual electronic parts might only cost 5-10x a $1k speaker. The cost isn't driven primarily by performance related factors (parts, engineering) but logistics, missing economies of scale due to the niche market, dealer margin, luxury pricing, and relatively high overhead.

Thank you for this. The penny is dropping. It was driving me crazy (well, not really) that speakers can cost half a million dollars, because when stripped down to parts it wasn't making sense. I think I read somewhere the raw materials of an iPhone are something like $2 in total

 

[kemmler3D]

Thank you for this. The penny is dropping. It was driving me crazy (well, not really) that speakers can cost half a million dollars, because when stripped down to parts it wasn't making sense. I think I read somewhere the raw materials of an iPhone are something like $2 in total

Raw materials are very cheap compared to finished goods, you can get a kilo of lithium for less than $9, but the batteries they go into cost $1000s - apparently a whole electric car only uses 7-8 kilos.

But I should have also mentioned the materials cost for the cabinets. Bigger speakers with fancier materials will tend to cost a lot in parts. Consider what you have to pay for a decent quality dining table, a large speaker is more involved to build.

Outside of the luxury segment, the cost of goods in total (including labor) relative to MSRP tends to be less than 30%. That's actually considered high.

In the luxury segment, that number could be lower, but even if it were held to 30% we could still see surprisingly high prices because hand-building giant speakers one at a time is a pretty expensive process.

People will sometimes see a COGS of 10-30% and feel that they're getting ripped off. But if you tally up shipping, taxes, reasonable marketing expenses, overhead (offices, warehouses, etc), the retailer's share, the distributor's share, etc. then you start to wonder how they can stay in business at 30%.

 

[MattHooper]

Thank you for this. The penny is dropping. It was driving me crazy (well, not really) that speakers can cost half a million dollars, because when stripped down to parts it wasn't making sense. I think I read somewhere the raw materials of an iPhone are something like $2 in total

Getting back to expensive systems, hi-fi shows, of course are the way perhaps most audiophiles have a chance to hear the crazy expensive stuff.

I’ve always found it fascinating, both from my own experience attending shows over the years as well as reading reports from other audiophiles, that many people’s “ best of show” moments have come from more modest set ups versus the oligarch set ups.
It could be sitting down in front of some (perhaps affordable ) stand mounted monitors that just end up transfixing you more than you might get from the big rigs.

Over the years I’ve had some amazing discoveries at audio shows that were far from the most expensive stuff there. One CES audio show I was completely taken by Thiel CS6 speakers powered by tube amplifiers.
I didn’t even know you could do Thiels and tubes. I eventually re-created the type of sound I heard in that room in my own home with Thiel CS6 speaker speakers and tube amps.

And you can also sometimes hear something in the more expensive stuff that can sort of tip you off in a direction that can be rewarding.
Or even look lower in that manufacturers line to the more affordable stuff that might have a similar presentation.

For me that was the case Numerous times.
It was upon hearing the unaffordable MBL 101 omnis at a show which blew my mind, that eventually led to my owning one of their smaller more “affordable” speakers. I got essentially the same type of Sonic characteristics at home as I heard in the big ones.

That also happened when I heard top of the line speakers from Hales and Joseph Audio at some big audio shows. Even though they’re top of line speakers weren’t nearly as expensive as lots of stuff there, they stuck out as “ best in show” moments for me, and I eventually ended up owning some of their more affordable speakers, which gave me plenty of sonic bliss.

There have been so many times hearing a system at a show where some interesting character characteristics stuck out where I thought “ I really like that” and it led me to some interesting journeys.

I know I’m far from alone in that.

 

[GD Fan]

Take a stack of $100 bills, at least 585 of them, and fan them next to your preferred ear.

That sound is the 'light, airy lilt' that you'll get from 'expensive speakers'.

Or just send me that stack of the 585 bills. I will immediately report back. From Bali.