What DAC should I buy? (R2R or Delta)

[funnychap]

When digital audio first hit the consumer market all the players had R2R DAC’s and audio writers moaned about the digital sound. Some blamed it on distortion caused by imperfect accuracy in the steps of the resistor ladder. Others said it was the antialiasing filters. Out came massive oversampling and the first D/S DAC’s (then called one bit DAC’s). The D/S DAC’s were expensive and every real audiophile scrambled do get one. Now non oversampled R2R DAC’s are praised as wonderful. Were they deaf then or are they deaf now?

Aside: I asked a sales guy at a high end audio store back then how a one bit DAC worked and his explanation was pretty funny.

I was in San Antonio and Austin this past weekend and I enjoyed the live music there.

So yesterday I ordered the Denafrips Ares II 12th anniversary (more power, better firmware, and i2s input) which reviewers say sounds even more realistic than the original Denafrips Ares II. I'm looking forward to hearing the Denafrips (R2R technology) compared to Delta-sigma chip based from ESS Sabre (I have the Topping E50, Topping E70, Arcam AVR5 receiver that has the ESS Sabre 9026Pro).

I do NOT recommend my Denon X3700H with an unknown dac that is not dynamic and sounds terrible for 2-channels music.
I do NOT recommend my Emotiva BasX-A3 amplifier because it is not dynamic and sounds terrible for 2-channels music.
---------------
..I upgraded to Apple Music... and wow, just wow.

Apple Music with Spatial Audio (surround sound music via Dolby Atmos) is a night and day improvement.

Spotify 2-channels is like home theater in the 90s with 2 front speakers or DVDs, whereas Spatial Audio is like today's home theater with 13 speakers and Dolby Atmos/DTS:X and 4k physical disc movies. It's a night and day improvement.

I compared the song 'Senorita by shawn mendez and camila cabello' in Apple Spatial Audio versus 2-channels Spotify and it was a night and day improvement.

In my Corvette with Apple Carplay (and an aftermarket wireless Apple Carplay adapter from Amazon), Spotify now sounds so so so bad (sounds like a cassette as if there's a blanket over my speaker) versus Apple Music's clarity and dynamic range. I didn't know what I was missing!

The song with the most night and day difference is: Y Volvere by Lucero (female vocalist). In Spotify, there's a lot of crackling noises because Spotify can't capture the full wavelength, whereas there's no crackling in Apple Music and the notes are higher.

 

[Abe_W]

The combination of R2R, Multibit Dacs & Class A amplification will give you the best sound. The combination of delta Sigma & Class D tends to sound like gas filled cheeks. But, the placebo effect from top of the charts sinad measurements can make it sound more like music to you.

Your 50 sinad speakers and noise floor of the room makes all these dac sinad measurements meaningless, in general. But, once again, the placebo effect granted by these sinad measurements is all you need. Believe in the sinad and the placebo shall be strong within you.

 

[voodooless]

Uhuh…

 

[Beave]

The combination of R2R, Multibit Dacs & Class A amplification will give you the best sound. The combination of delta Sigma & Class D tends to sound like gas filled cheeks. But, the placebo effect from top of the charts sinad measurements can make it sound more like music to you.

Your 50 sinad speakers and noise floor of the room makes all these dac sinad measurements meaningless, in general. But, once again, the placebo effect granted by these sinad measurements is all you need. Believe in the sinad and the placebo shall be strong within you.

Mods, please move to Humor thread. Thanks.

 

[Galliardist]

The combination of R2R, Multibit Dacs & Class A amplification will give you the best sound. The combination of delta Sigma & Class D tends to sound like gas filled cheeks. But, the placebo effect from top of the charts sinad measurements can make it sound more like music to you.

Your 50 sinad speakers and noise floor of the room makes all these dac sinad measurements meaningless, in general. But, once again, the placebo effect granted by these sinad measurements is all you need. Believe in the sinad and the placebo shall be strong within you.

Are you implying that what I really need are ultra-distorted electronics just so I can hear their effect through poor speakers? That's an interesting concept.

And have you a recording of gas filled cheeks, whatever that means, so I can blind test against my system?

 

[Mart68]

The combination of R2R, Multibit Dacs & Class A amplification will give you the best sound. The combination of delta Sigma & Class D tends to sound like gas filled cheeks. But, the placebo effect from top of the charts sinad measurements can make it sound more like music to you.
.

interesting theory but I use Class A amplification and have compared R-2R to DS in the comfort of my own home. Even sighted with no level matching the differences were not worth writing home about.

 

[Snoopy]

Your 50 sinad speakers and noise floor of the room makes all these dac sinad measurements meaningless, in general.

Yeah but there might be something to that. Even if I don't agree with the other stuff.
That's if you are running passive loudspeaker's with a traditional crossover In a untreated room.

Once you use active loudspeakers, Dirac and room treatment things will be very different.

Not that there is anything wrong with running a R2R DAC or class A amp..big part of our hobby is "eye candy" after all.

Give me VU meters on a nice old school looking amp and I'm happy as a pig In shit.
(Even if it turns out 70% of the chassis are empty because there is a class D amp inside)

 

[Galliardist]

Yeah but there might be something to that. Even if I don't agree with the other stuff.
That's if you are running passive loudspeaker's with a traditional crossover In a untreated room.

Of course you can spot a distorting amp with a traditional crossover in an untreated room. It depends on the distortion, to an extent. And despite my last rather sarcastic post, some people want to hear that distortion, even if we don't need to as I said before.

The Sugden A21 has been in production in different versions for over 50 years, and distorts into pretty much any speaker quite audibly. I've not owned it, but I spent many hours listening to a friend's system which had an early example, and while I'd never buy one, it was different but not hard to listen to or anything.

I may have to retract...

 

[Mnyb]

Consider why this Abe W guy choose to poke a stick onto this old tread rigth now ? Troll ? I put him on ignore .....

 

[Killingbeans]

The combination of R2R, Multibit Dacs & Class A amplification will give you the best sound. The combination of delta Sigma & Class D tends to sound like gas filled cheeks. But, the placebo effect from top of the charts sinad measurements can make it sound more like music to you.

Don't throw stones when you live in a glass house.

Yes, sky high SINAD numbers can absolutely make you imagine things, but so can the whole "analogue" signal chain narrative.

One doesn't exclude the other.

 

[Abe_W]

Are you implying that what I really need are ultra-distorted electronics just so I can hear their effect through poor speakers? That's an interesting concept.

All your speakers are already poor. Measure Sinad on what you think are the best speakers on earth. Now, factor in the noise floor of your room. That automatic headless panther is all that reaches your ears in the end anyways..

But, when you all keep chasing 130, 140 sinad dacs, it adds nothing to the listening experience. If dac manufacturers start incorporating crosstalk cancellation like the BACCH and other useful features at affordable costs, it could actually improve the listening experience. But, they are currently busy catering to the sinad golfing panther placebo effect for audio scientists.

 

[Jimbob54]

The combination of R2R, Multibit Dacs & Class A amplification will give you the best sound. The combination of delta Sigma & Class D tends to sound like gas filled cheeks. But, the placebo effect from top of the charts sinad measurements can make it sound more like music to you.

Your 50 sinad speakers and noise floor of the room makes all these dac sinad measurements meaningless, in general. But, once again, the placebo effect granted by these sinad measurements is all you need. Believe in the sinad and the placebo shall be strong within you.

How do you hear the benefits of the R2R DACs and Class A amps then?

 

[Galliardist]

All your speakers are already poor. Measure Sinad on what you think are the best speakers on earth. Now, factor in the noise floor of your room. That automatic headless panther is all that reaches your ears in the end anyways..

But, when you all keep chasing 130, 140 sinad dacs, it adds nothing to the listening experience. If dac manufacturers start incorporating crosstalk cancellation like the BACCH and other useful features at affordable costs, it could actually improve the listening experience. But, they are currently busy catering to the sinad golfing panther placebo effect for audio scientists.

Firstly, I am very happy with my 105 SINAD disc player, thank you very much. It's true one bit. I'm also happy with my class D amp. I'm totally confused how I can hear that they are so awful, since I also have passive speakers.

So I see you've switched your target preferred technology now. But how do I get to hear the advantages of BACCH through my headless panther listening room, or anything else?

Actually, I learnt, too long ago to want to be reminded, a practical lesson that the difference between a turntable with rumble at -55dB and one at -60dB, or the difference between a badly matched phono cartridge and phono stage and a well matched pair, was quite audible through the cheapest recommended loudspeakers of the late 1970s.

The switch from a good LP player to CD was certainly clearly audible, and that's all below that SINAD of 50.

I'm still waiting for the gas filled cheeks, please!

 

[Killingbeans]

All your speakers are already poor. Measure Sinad on what you think are the best speakers on earth. Now, factor in the noise floor of your room. That automatic headless panther is all that reaches your ears in the end anyways..

We know.

But does the R2R, Multibit Dacs + Class A amp combo really have enough character to punch through all of that poorness?

And if so, isn't it just adding another layer of poorness? One that happens to be pleasant, but also can be replicated by much simpler means?

 

[Mart68]

But, when you all keep chasing 130, 140 sinad dacs, it adds nothing to the listening experience. If dac manufacturers start incorporating crosstalk cancellation like the BACCH and other useful features at affordable costs, it could actually improve the listening experience. But, they are currently busy catering to the sinad golfing panther placebo effect for audio scientists.

That's your fundamental error, we aren't doing anything of the sort. Do a poll of the members and ask how many think that the DAC is of any more than minor consequence in their system.

If there was a market for BACHH then you can bet your ass multiple companies would be going after it same way as they are going after the R-2R punters. The idea that they are devoting all their resources into getting a few more points of SINAD is ridiculous.

 

[JSmith]

Troll ?

Yep... absolutely.

The ex Microsoft programmer who's tinkering with a audio precision toolkit to give you some charts/reviews wouldn't even know where to begin on the above mentioned, I think man.

JSmith

 

[Abe_W]

We know.

But does the R2R, Multibit Dacs + Class A amp combo really have enough character to punch through all of that poorness?

Yes it does. Quit staring at charts, get some good speakers, drop the dirac, treat your room and "listen". Listen extensively to different genres of music for a month. Then swap suddenly to a DS topping paired with some class D turd. It should be a rude awakening. The measurement overlords might have just let you down.

 

[Galliardist]

Yes it does. Quit staring at charts, get some good speakers, drop the dirac, treat your room and "listen". Listen extensively to different genres of music for a month. Then swap suddenly to a DS topping paired with some class D turd. It should be a rude awakening. The measurement overlords might have just let you down.

I’m prepared to suggest you have zero experience of such a change yourself.

Do you have any evidence at all for the use of the word “turd” in your comment?

Which animal? Does it have gas filled cheeks?

 

[Killingbeans]

Yes it does. Quit staring at charts, get some good speakers, drop the dirac, treat your room and "listen". Listen extensively to different genres of music for a month. Then swap suddenly to a DS topping paired with some class D turd. It should be a rude awakening. The measurement overlords might have just let you down.

And none of that rude awakening can possibly be caused by the placebo effect working in tandem with preconceived notions about DS DACs and Class D "turds"?

Just to make it clear, I agree 100% with you that good speakers, sensible room treatment and well implemented DSP is the key to actual high quality audio playback, but we seem to have two very different definitions of "listen". Having a truly well performing playback system and using it for so called "critical listening" does in no way make you immune to perceptual bias.

I've seen tons of anecdotes about one circuit topology being "smooth and warm" and another being "cold and clinical", but practically none of those seem to hold water when the claims are finally being put to the test. And when there's an actual audible difference, it always turns out to be caused by something silly, like load interactions doing alterations to the frequency response, or the signal clipping somewhere in the chain giving copious amounts of distortion.

A high performance DAC is a high performance DAC, and high performance amp is a high performance amp. Topology has nothing to do with it.

You get "character" and "personality" from faulty designs. Those faults can be either deliberate or pure mishaps, but they are never unavoidable.

 

[Galliardist]

And none of that rude awakening can possibly be caused by the placebo effect working in tandem with preconceived notions about DS DACs and Class D "turds"?

Just to make it clear, I agree 100% with you that good speakers, sensible room treatment and well implemented DSP is the key to actual high quality audio playback, but we seem to have two very different definitions of "listen". Having a truly well performing playback system and using it for so called "critical listening" does in no way make you immune to perceptual bias.

I've seen tons of anecdotes about one circuit topology being "smooth and warm" and another being "cold and clinical", but practically none of those seem to hold water when the claims are finally being put to the test. And when there's an actual audible difference, it always turns out to be caused by something silly, like load interactions doing alterations to the frequency response, or the signal clipping somewhere in the chain giving copious amounts of distortion.

A high performance DAC is a high performance DAC, and high performance amp is a high performance amp. Topology has nothing to do with it.

You get "character" and "personality" from faulty designs. Those faults can be either deliberate or pure mishaps, but they are never unavoidable.

Thank you for answering nicely, as I didn’t.

For Abe W’s benefit, I will list add that I have speakers that are reasonably well regarded in this part of the world, and have migrated from a multibit CD player and class AB amplifier to a DSD based player/DAC and class D amplifier with no problems at all.