• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

What cables do you use in your systems?

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
It's not the evidence, but from personal perspective it doesn't fit in a picture of a bias deciding the outcome.

And do you conclude from that that there must be something (ie something other than psychology) to it?
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
Yeah, I will blind test it one day, at least with the cables it's really simple to do it. I will report a result when I do it, only I suspect if I succeed to recognize the difference in a blind test each time, no one (or almost no one) here will believe in those results anyway :D

When you have statistically enough tries you will find you'll be close to 50% in guessing right.
In this case I would suggest you also note your confidence levels along which cable you think it is.

3 attempts and getting 2 or 3 right falls well within doing a coin flip and land 3 times on the same side.
With 16 or 20 attempts the average will be closer to 50%.
Along with the actual test tries flip a coin as a control and note that too.
Chances are the coin may even do better than you.

have you seen the null test video (I built a similar device about 30 years ago and did similar tests).
This uses music and compares (substracts actually) the input from the output of the cable.
Any differences, be them in phase or amplitude will result in signal.
The most rigid test using music and ears (you can listen to the nulls) you can find.

This audible result is recordable as well.

Here is a test you can do.
Mono signal out from a DAC into 2 different cables for left and right.
Use Pauls software to null the left and right channel (there WILL be level differences so can't null the files directly) and the difference file you get is the difference between the cables.
When that is below 80dB it is inaudible.

I know you are confident and comfortable with the perceived differences.
I was too when starting the hobby a bit more seriously about 30 years ago.
It wasn't till I build a null tester and started to blind test after I realised I had fooled myself a few times unknowingly.
I was a 'clear difference in opamp, topology and capacitor believer using vinyl, RTR and CD with highly resolving tensionless electrostats.
Had hearing to 18kHz (measured not estimated) back in those days.

As I said... educate yourself. Your hearing is not trustworthy as an analyzer or to compare things from memory/impression/emotional involvement.
You should only use them to enjoy music.

Don't take my word for it... test yourself... with the knowing part removed. Educate yourself in a different way than you did till now.
 
Last edited:

zalive

Active Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Messages
263
Likes
38
And do you conclude from that that there must be something (ie something other than psychology) to it?

The reason why and when you decide you actually hear a difference, from my perspective, is if you can define where the difference is. Say, if I hear less sibilance or highs are less harsh on bad recordings; or if I hear a tighter bass definition or more extended bass.

Things like my anecdote above are more a personal confirmation than the reason why I think it's not because of bias. Because, if it was some psychological phenomena other than expectation bias...I really wouldn't know how to explain to myself where it came from, the observation which was not aligned with what I believed. I thought of course the connector will affect the sound, but I though the wire would be more responsible for the sound, while connectors...might make a little difference, perhaps. So yeah, how come I'm hearing something different to my expectation? Where does it come from?
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
That's not how bias works alas but is often used as counter argument.

It doesn't always do what one expects bias does , i.e. confirm your suspicion.
It works by you knowing what is tested. Take out the knowing part in statistically relevant attempts and you will swear you hear differences between the attempts (or not). Only to find out later, when notes from the tester and you are compared, to find out that what you heard does not coincide with what really happpened.

Been there. Long ago I was hell bound to prove the naysayers wrong.

Only once you tested without the knowing part yourself you will understand. You really need to experience both sides of the medal and not reason the other side away. This last bit is what engineers are often accused off.
Guess what .. not all engineers are the same.
 
Last edited:

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
The reason why and when you decide you actually hear a difference, from my perspective, is if you can define where the difference is. Say, if I hear less sibilance or highs are less harsh on bad recordings; or if I hear a tighter bass definition or more extended bass.

Things like my anecdote above are more a personal confirmation than the reason why I think it's not because of bias. Because, if it was some psychological phenomena other than expectation bias...I really wouldn't know how to explain to myself where it came from, the observation which was not aligned with what I believed. I thought of course the connector will affect the sound, but I though the wire would be more responsible for the sound, while connectors...might make a little difference, perhaps. So yeah, how come I'm hearing something different to my expectation? Where does it come from?

Being able to describe a specific perceived difference is not proof that the perceived difference doesn’t have a psychological basis. Why would it be?
 

Sal1950

Grand Contributor
The Chicago Crusher
Forum Donor
Joined
Mar 1, 2016
Messages
14,073
Likes
16,609
Location
Central Fl
I absolutely have had interconnects that made a audible difference.
30 years ago the Kimber PBJ's were all the rage for affordable interconnects.
I plugged a pair between my McCormak pre and VTL tube amps and they hummed like hell.
No need for a DBT, I could have even measured the amps output at the speakers.
The unshielded design in my system just didn't cut it.
Good news ending.
I threw them in a drawer, but then sold them on ebay about 2 years ago for what I paid.
 

zalive

Active Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Messages
263
Likes
38
Being able to describe a specific perceived difference is not proof that the perceived difference doesn’t have a psychological basis. Why would it be?

It's not a proof, no one says it is. But without finding in my mind adequate psychological connection for a specific result, I don't see a reason why would I consider it coming from the bias. If I had, say, three scenarios in my head of how it might end, and one of them happened, I'd see a connection - obviously all three cannot happen at the same time so it has to be one.
 

zalive

Active Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Messages
263
Likes
38
When you have statistically enough tries you will find you'll be close to 50% in guessing right.
In this case I would suggest you also note your confidence levels along which cable you think it is.

3 attempts and getting 2 or 3 right falls well within doing a coin flip and land 3 times on the same side.
With 16 or 20 attempts the average will be closer to 50%.

How can you do this many attempts and keep the good focus. It's impossible. You need a span of many days to finish it in a meaningful way.
When you come in parfume shop the sellers will know, you can try 2-3, maybe 4 testers, after that there's no point trying, it all mixes up.
 

andreasmaaan

Master Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 19, 2018
Messages
6,652
Likes
9,399
It's not a proof, no one says it is. But without finding in my mind adequate psychological connection for a specific result, I don't see a reason why would I consider it coming from the bias. If I had, say, three scenarios in my head of how it might end, and one of them happened, I'd see a connection - obviously all three cannot happen at the same time so it has to be one.

I can empathise with why you would feel like that, but your mind (like mine) is just not that reliable. I hope you do do some blind tests eventually, I think you’ll be surprised by the results.

How can you do this many attempts and keep the good focus. It's impossible.

There’s no requirement that all trials be done without a break.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
How can you do this many attempts and keep the good focus. It's impossible. You need a span of many days to finish it in a meaningful way.
When you come in parfume shop the sellers will know, you can try 2-3, maybe 4 testers, after that there's no point trying, it all mixes up.

Yes a span of a week or so.
This is for your education, not mine or others and this method can be used with almost any equipment.
I can see why you would be reluctant to try.
I just mentioned a possible way which worked for me.

A cable can easily be tested in a few hours when working with someone that randomly plugs around cables.
he could pull one cable and put it back in instead of change it. Even a few times in a row.

You say you can easily hear it so 1 minute of listening would be enough.

You don't need to do this, I merely explain how you could do this together with someone. As long as you are 100% unaware which cable is in use and you both keep scores the test is valid.

It has nothing to do with parfume and why you can only test a few samples. That comparison is lame in so many ways.
 

zalive

Active Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Messages
263
Likes
38
Yes a span of a week or so.
This is for your education, not mine or others and this method can be used with almost any equipment.

Good enough span.
Well the latter, it's not true, solderdude. You don't really care for my education because of me, or at least you shouldn't.
I can be enlightened or happily deluded and it should be about the same to you. There's nothing wrong in either, it's mine! ;)
In each of us there's a wish for the matter to be cleared once for all, yet we all feel it's not so.
 
Last edited:

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
I am merely handing you a way to test blind in a comfortable way.

YOUR choice what to do with the info.
 

zalive

Active Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Messages
263
Likes
38
Listening is about listening music as a whole. Analitical part kicks in once you noticed there's something different already, so you try to locate what's happening. I believe neurology would say something about the activity of the left and the right half of the brain and it's connection to integral and analytical approach. Also, you want to be relaxed. You want it to be fun. You want to recreate the state of enjoying in listening to music, because it's the state of mind being used for listening to the music. When you can't keep it it's time to call it a day and have a good rest, not just a break, IMO.

My view is that, for the example, frequent switching between A, B (and X) is a disaster. I'd rather trust a long term memory than confusion created by switching every while. And I'd rather listen to it in a format where I'm not in control of switching music but rather be let to have enough time to listen to the whole track in peace, then listen to B. Again I stated in my view A+B+X=too much. You want to keep it as simple as possible, and you don't want to switch to a mindset of having to think too much of manipulating the samples, because this doesn't represent the right mindstate for listening to the music: No, nuances are not obvious immediately upon switching unless the difference is really big - depending on what's A and what's B it can be but otherwise the format will harm the sensitivity of the test. Listen to the whole track. Don't switch. And don't overdo. No matter what you think of perfume analogy there is a certain similarity, it is about taste, sensation, impressions, and this changes with the consumation - why should music be different, when it isn't in this respect?

So if or when I do it, I'll do it my way. I'm not slave to the accustomed methodologies or popular opininon how it should be done no matter how widespread it might be. I follow my own observations, logic, thoughts and feelings in this respect as well. And I think I can come up with methodology which would be found only acceptable, nevertheless.
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
An often heard and repeated counter argument for any objective testing.
This argument invalidates itself with people who actually have tested BOTH ways so subjectively and not knowing.
There one learns how crappy the brain is in 'remembering' sound and impressions it made you feel.
You see... there is mood in there and people only store very little info and often can't even remember exactly what they did a week ago.
This is a well documented and known fact yet often used to justify NOT testing blind because it ruthlessly shows the abilities one thought they had did not really exist.

The funny thing is it is possible and easy to do blind testing over a long period where all your 'conditions' are still met.
Just remove the 'knowing' part and keep scores while someone else now and then secretly switches cables and keeps note.

I know because I did and the results are exactly the same as when done over a short period.

Nope, there is no excuse other than being afraid someone else (the ones you whole hardheartedly disagree with) could be right after all.
 

zalive

Active Member
Joined
Sep 4, 2018
Messages
263
Likes
38
It wasn't argument this time, I don't consider my previous post as a discussion. It'more my opinion and a personal plan if I'm doing it. And of course it's possible to do it this way.

Tell me, which methodology did you use? Was it the ABX? Or some other? How often did you switch?
 

solderdude

Grand Contributor
Joined
Jul 21, 2018
Messages
15,891
Likes
35,912
Location
The Neitherlands
No ABX... just as described.

Listen to your setup at home, at will at your convenience whenever you feel like it.
Teach the person who will be helping how to change the cables.
They should change the cables at random days when you are not there.
They should keep notes with day and time of change.
It should NEVER be visible to you which cable is in there. Cover them with paper or something else if you can see them.
Ensure you don't KNOW.

Listen to the music at your own leasure. Make notes + day/time of which cable you can clearly hear is in there (add confidence level if you want)

After a month or so compare notes.

In my case the item (a 'tweak' that is supposed to work after a few hours and would make sound more 'real') was switched just 3 times simply because the wife forgot to do this after a while and the remainder of the days the tweak wasn't applied.

There was no correlation and at times I would swear the tweak was applied and other days not. Even when there apparently was no tweak.

I also had a pre-amp with a switch in the back (my subjective days long ago) in it I could switch between capacitor coupled (using electrolytic caps, a few of them in series and cheap TL071 opamps) and a DC coupled pre-amp with compound decoupling and OP27 opamps (the rage at that time)

I swear I was able to tell and so did others when I flipped the switch and told what was in circuit.
On 2 occasions I accidentally left the switch (not visible and not easy accessible) in an unexpected position.
I listened for months to the 'poor' quality pre-amp without knowing it, being sure I left it in the 'good' position.
Never heard bad sound and always sounded great. I was fooled.

Another time I was fooled because I remembered the switch position incorrectly.
Hadn't used it for years and when someone came over to hear the benefits of DC coupled good opamps I had given it a few switches and left it in the wrong position.
Result: when demonstrating and telling what was what I accidentally told him (and me) the reverse conditions. So when I said 'good' it was the poor one and vice versa.
Later we were both satisfied and clearly heard the 'good' one won.
The next day I had to change something in the back and realized I had it reversed. Never told the guy and that was one of the moments I started scratching my neck.

Later in life I worked at a high-end store which also sold cables of course. I was repair/service guy. When the usual install guy was on vacation I had to take over his work.
Sometimes this involved installing new cables.
At our shop one could always return cables when not satisfied. In all the years NO one EVER returned any cable !!!!
One of my 'experiments' on hifi addicts was described here (scroll down to the bottom part)
yes, anecdotal but should make one wonder.
 

AndrovichIV

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
158
Likes
218

AndrovichIV

Active Member
Forum Donor
Joined
May 25, 2019
Messages
158
Likes
218
Improving sound seems impossible.
By the promise of cables sounding 'better' (different) than others it must be so that all cables always degrade the sound (in a strangely similar way) except the 'good ones' as these degrade the sound less and the best ones (they MUST be expensive) do not degrade this at all.

Funnily enough I actually read the thesis above a couple of time written by cable believers.
It would be convenient for believers if it actually worked that way.

b.t.w. I use home made RCA cables using microphone cables. Sometimes generic ones have no or poor shielding which one finds out when they break and you want to put a new connector on it.
No particular brand nor special (expensive) connectors.
I did have access to expensive cables from my work (long ago) and tested them.
This is why I only use cheap homemade interlinks made to the correct size.

Yes, my bad. I should have referred to as "is there evidence that certain RCA cables degrade sound less than others to the point that there's an audible improvement compared to other RCA cables".
 

maarten

Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2019
Messages
37
Likes
52
What cables do you use in your systems?

Interconnects:

Speaker cable:

Coax cable:

USB cable:

Power cable:

Liquid nitrogen cooled 140 mm oxygen free and sugar free 10k twisted copper-gold platinum-magnesium alloy strands, in order to deliver ultimate staging, crisp but honey mellow high notes, best mid tones ever heard and a completely distortion free bass that extends to -20 Hz (!) but moreover to have wonderful string arrangements added that even weren't recorded (!) but thanks to the extreme musicality of these 1 million Euro a pair interconnects emerge.
 
Top Bottom