What are the flattest measuring studio monitors?

[propaganda1]

Apologies for asking this question that has probably been asked countless times before, but I wanted an up to date answer.

For near-field use, what are the objectively best measuring studio monitors at any price point? and also, the best ones under £1000?

According to my research, for under £1000, the Genelec 8030C and Neumann KH120 II are the go to's, but I was curious if anything better exists. I will be using these with a subwoofer so I do not need a good bass response, I am really looking for a high quality, well extended treble. I will be using room correction/EQ as well.

Thank you for any help.

 

[bachatero]

Neumann KH150, KH120 II

 

[terryforsythe]

Neumann's are the flatest on axis with the centerline between the woofer and tweeter aimed at ear level, vertically +/- 15 degrees.

Neumann KH 150 Monitor Review

This is a review, listening tests and measurements of the Neumann KH150 DSP 2-way studio monitor (active speaker). It is on loan from the company and costs US $1,750 (each). The design language is not changed of course. The main woofer is 6.5 inches now powered by 120 watt dedicated...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Genelec The Ones use a concentric midrange/tweeter and have the most linear estimated in-room response. They will be better if you need more flexibility with regard to speaker placement vertically, +/-60 degrees.

Genelec 8341A SAM™ Studio Monitor Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the Genelec 8341A SAM™ Studio Monitor (powered speaker). It is on kind loan from a member. Despite its small size, this is an expensive monitor, costing US $5,900 for a pair. Of course you get amplification as part of the package. The 8341 is an...

www.audiosciencereview.com

For under £1000/pair I would look at the Kali Audio IN-8v2 (the "v2" part is important, the original IN-8 did not measure well, but v2 does). They also use a a concentric midrange/tweeter and are good vertically for +/-30 degrees.

Kali Audio IN-8v2 (Second Wave) 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

Kali Audio IN-8v2 3-Way Studio Monitor Review

www.erinsaudiocorner.com

You would need to find out whether Kalis are available in your region. Sometimes people in Europe have trouble getting access to American speakers.

 

[levimax]

KH 310 ?

 

[psykano]

Ranking table of speaker's measurements

www.spinorama.org

 

[levimax]

I will be using these with a subwoofer so I do not need a good bass response

Subwoofer integration difficulty is very underrated especially with small monitors that use DSP and ports to push FR lower. The "cost" of these is Group Delay which while not particularly audible by itself makes sub integration much more difficult. The solution is larger monitors and or sealed monitors which is why I mentioned KH 310 which have relatively less group delay. After recent experience I have had with sub integration I would go with the KH 420 or the Genelec equivalent without subs if at all possible.

 

[ckernel8]

Subwoofer integration difficulty is very underrated especially with small monitors that use DSP and ports to push FR lower. The "cost" of these is Group Delay which while not particularly audible by itself makes sub integration much more difficult. The solution is larger monitors and or sealed monitors which is why I mentioned KH 310 which have relatively less group delay. After recent experience I have had with sub integration I would go with the KH 420 or the Genelec equivalent without subs if at all possible.

I mean for both Genelec and Neumann, they have profiles explicitly designed for integrating their subwoofers with.

 

[levimax]

I mean for both Genelec and Neumann, they have profiles explicitly designed for integrating their subwoofers with.

I am sure the Genelec and Neumann dedicated subs work very well with their respective monitors (for monitoring at least) but getting a 3rd party sub to work, even with the supplied information, is going to be more difficult (not impossible) than most would have you believe. OP didn't say if he planned to use the dedicated factory subs or 3rd party subs, I assumed 3rd party but I could be wrong.

 

[thulle]

Neumann straight AF

Genelec barely a straight line in sight

 

[terryforsythe]

even with the supplied information, is going to be more difficult (not impossible) than most would have you believe.

Agreed. Not impossible, but to do so manually takes time and patience, and there is a learning curve. Learning about frequency response, active crossovers, group delay and proper phase alignment before getting started is a very good idea.

But, Dirac Live makes it much simpler and does a pretty good job. Set the crossover frequency and topology, and go. The most tedious part is moving the microphone to the different locations when instructed to do so by Dirac.

If the speakers are ported, run Dirac with the ports open, then run it again with them plugged, and see which configuration gives you the best results. *Note that when you plug the ports you probably cannot crossover as low as when the ports are open. Run a frequency response sweep of the speakers with the ports plugged to select the appropriate crossover frequency for that configuration.

 

[Heinrich]

. push FR lower. The "cost" of these is Group Delay which while not particularly audible by itself makes sub integration much more difficult. ...

For one the integration under ideal circumstances is described by filter theory, and is clearly possible, no hassle. Second
the non ideal part with room reflections, aka resonances, that undermine the validity of theoretical assumptions. Ideal is unreal.

Equalizer is available, which allows for nearly arbitrary frequency extension up and down the spectrum. I wonder why the monitor itself should be the most linear one. Nearfield involves the desk or the infamous 'meter bridge'. Better to decide between narrow or wide radiation depending on the particular use. Maybe a more narrow vertical is the more utilitarian type, horns?

If the o/p longs for the most accurate frequency response, in case it is important, I would strongly suggest to get into using a really calibrated measuring microphone at least for validation. There are so many variables desk/room and other features as distortion etc pp.

For near-field use, what are the objectively best measuring studio monitors at any price point? ... curious if anything better exists. ... I will be using room correction/EQ as well.

The best measuring monitors are those that you measure yourself after set-up ;-) The standard go-to solutions as were already mentioned provide the most convenient starting point.

 

[terryforsythe]

For one the integration under ideal circumstances is described by filter theory, and is clearly possible, no hassle.

Possible, yes I agree.

With regard to no hassle, I disagree unless one is willing to accept sub-optimal results or is using an automated system like Dirac Live. Manually tuning to get an optimal crossover transition (flat frequency response and drivers in phase) with loads that are complex impedances and have varying goup delays requires a fundmental understanding of the various parameters at play and their effects, as well as time spent modelling and/or experimenting with various settings.

Then, as you noted, there are room reflections, which add another curve ball to the process. For most people, an automated solution, e.g., Dirac Live, is the way to go if they want optimal results without venturing too deep down the rabbit hole.

 

[Heinrich]

Dirac Live, is the way to go ..

Not exacly, as room interaction is a second thought according to Dr.Toole. The grand total in-room resposne is a consequence of flat direct sound and smooth off axis response and good room acoustics. A smooth on axis is first. (Because people adopt to the room, neglecting it ;-)

Nevertheless, that notion departs from the original question. It needs to be perfect out of the box, he said.

Dirac is not the optimum in this context.

 

[Salt]

IK comes into mind with an interesting offer , sold out at Thomann.

 

[levimax]

For an application that accurate FR is important, like monitoring, sub integration adds a lot of uncertainty and variables, which is why I said if you can avoid a sub that would be preferable. If a satellite and sub solution is required then I would stick with the factory designed subs. It is far from trivial to integrate subs, and the factory engineers, working with speakers that they designed and accurately measured, are going to have the best chance of success. Trying to get accurate in room measurements is fraught with issues from DSP delay, to group delay, to DSP pre-ringing, and then of course the room itself. I tried to use DIRAC and it totally failed. I have mains with almost no group delay and subs with over 100 ms of group delay as well as DSP delay and pre-ringing and it was too much for DIRAC to try to sort out with just "blind" measurements. I know DIRAC does work in many cases but if you read on these boards certainly not all the time. The problem is in order to figure out if DIRAC "worked" you need to take "after" measurements which leads right back down the rabbit hole. For "fun" listening it is not a big deal but if the OP needs accurate monitoring for "work" then it becomes more serious and improper sub integration can easily make a mess of things no matter how good the satellite are by themselves.

 

[terryforsythe]

Not exacly, as room interaction is a second thought according to Dr.Toole.

My understanding of what Dr. Toole wrote was with respect to people taking a speaker with poor dispersion characteristics and trying to correct for that in-room. That is a different issue than correcting for room modes. Indeed, Dr. Toole even discussed in one of his posts about using EQ to manually apply room correction to address room modes.

Every room has room modes. Even with room treatment they rarely can be elimitated. Dirac LIve corrects for those with room correction. It is not perfect, but does a pretty good job. It oftentimes is recommended only to use Dirac Live up to the Schroeder frequency, or perhaps a bit higher, to address room modes, not to correct for flaws in the speaker above the schroeder frequency. That correlates with my understanding of Dr. Toole's recommendations.

Also, with the right hardware, Dirac Live also can tune the crossover between the subwoofer and woofer better than most people can do themselves without spending much time, assuming they have the knowledge to do so. The miniDSP Flex HTx has that functionality.

 

[Heinrich]

My understanding of what Dr. Toole wrote was ... The miniDSP Flex HTx has that functionality.

Cannot agree, I'm sorry. Dirac isn't it for stereo. Maybe for "surround" where all the reflections are prone to be addressed by speakers everywhere around, and the sound engineer's intentions. Not for plain stereo.

Anyway, the question was for a perfect stereo system out of the box. I wonder if that's a reasonable traget. In case, seek out for Neuman's and face reality.

 

[terryforsythe]

Cannot agree, I'm sorry. Dirac isn't it for stereo.

We can agree to disagree.

Many of miniDSP's stereo units include Dirac Live, and they work well. I had a miniDSP SHD (stereo) and currently have a miniDSP Flex HTx (for HT or active crossover stereo setup. I use it for the latter).

 

[hashhar]

You cannot address modes which lead to cancellation using EQ. Doesn't matter if it's Dirac or GLM or MA1 or Audessey etc.

 

[mixsit]

I'm not sure how relevant it might actually be but I happened to run into this Revel speaker review here at ASR earlier today. His FR plots down on the first page seem, well extremely flat.
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/...be-f226be-floorstanding-speaker-review.16702/