What are pro and cons about the EQ method showed in this video?

[DWPress]

It'll give you a more accurate speaker response than measuring from a single location where you might be trying to correct things that only exist in that particular point in space and time.

 

[Marcus Aseth]

If your crossover is implemented by the sub and you aren't doubling anything (like speakers getting a full-range signal) you can think of your system as two full-range speakers without a sub.

Ok then, I'll try like that =)


By the way, sorry to put yet another thing into the mix, but I have this small question I'm not sure it deserves a dedicated topic :S
It's regarding that bigger space I'll be moving into - I'm given the freedom to choose the size of my "bedroom/listening" room - the only restriction is the ceiling being 3,30 meters.
So I've came up with the measures you can see in the picture below, but as can be seen, those measures put me outside of the Bolt-Area... is that a big deal?
Should it be ok to keep them, or I should go for some better measures (and if so, can you guys recommend those better measures?)


My reasoning for picking those measures where:
1) it feels big enough, going too big would feel weird for a bedroom (I think...but also not sure)
2) too big = more difficult/expensive to treat (again a guess on my part)
3) it's enough space for my listening pos to be at 42% into the room with the speakers on stands and on an equilateral triangle while also 90cm from side and front wall. (although not sure if those 90cm from front wall are enough...)


So to recap, how critical is this bolt-area and the fact I'm outside of it?
Are my measures good?
Can we improve on those measures? (now that it hasn't been built yet!) =)

 

[LIΟN]

Yeah, placement is far from optimal from what I can tell... the room has an alcove so you could say is L shaped, I'm near the center of the room, speakers are on the desk some 80cm apart from each other and 67cm from my ears so a very wide triangle... but at least they are 95cm from side wall and 160cm from front wall.
all of this is temporary anyway, I'll be moving to a bigger house towards the end of this year and in there I'll have more space to put them on stands and to move ～38% into the room

I'm not sure I understand this correctly.
It sounds like you are saying that the distance between the speaker and you is 67cm and the distance between the speakers is 80cm.
It doesn't matter if the spacing is narrower or wider. (Of course there is a difference, but it's okay because it seems to be the spacing you already have in your environment, so it's not something you need to consider right now).
This will vary for each speaker, but recommend at least 80cm of distance.

impulse can be viewed by selecting it from any of the tabs in REW. It would be nice to modify it to match the Limit value that I have displayed, press Apply and capture it.
If you skip the essential definition and look at that, you can see that the sound coming out of the speaker is direct sound into the microphone, followed by the effects of reflections.
As the distance increases (e.g. in a living room), it becomes more difficult to reliably control the early reflections within 20ms, and they become more influential.
However, you mentioned that your listening distance is 63cm, which is very close, and unless you have a specific problem (like hiding the speakers behind a monitor altogether), the effects of severe roll-off or heavy filtering are relatively small.
UMIK-1 your microphone on a mic stand and in the correct listening position?

1) is the distortion the problem? To rule it out, I've ordered today the "SVS SoundPath Subwoofer Isolation System" (those massive feets for the SVS subwoofers) hoping it will make it better.
2) see those dips at 650Hz and 6k ? Am I supposed to use two gain filters there, like +6dB or something? Or should I leave them be?

This is why we ask you to check for impulses.
In a room, you hear the sum of direct and reflected sound, and you can't fix the effects of reflections with a simple EQ.
I think a target room curve is a result, not a goal.
You're mostly choosing the amount of bass below 200-300Hz, and the treble that rolls off after that will happen naturally with distance.
Of course, you are always welcome to listen and EQ to your own preference.

If you compress and share the saved mdat file by pressing File - Save all messurement in the top left corner of REW, it will be easier for many people to tell you the cause or a solution you can try.

 

[Marcus Aseth]

I'm not sure I understand this correctly.
It sounds like you are saying that the distance between the speaker and you is 67cm and the distance between the speakers is 80cm.

That's correct =)

UMIK-1 your microphone on a mic stand and in the correct listening position?

yes, also oriented vertically and with the 90° calibration file applied in the settings

1) is the distortion the problem? To rule it out, I've ordered today the "SVS SoundPath Subwoofer Isolation System" (those massive feets for the SVS subwoofers) hoping it will make it better.
2) see those dips at 650Hz and 6k ? Am I supposed to use two gain filters there, like +6dB or something? Or should I leave them be?

This is why we ask you to check for impulses.

Ah I see, you're helping me with those two problems, in which case I think I have more info about =)
Regarding the first, the distortion problem is only caused by the subwoofer, the speaker measurements have no distortion in them.
This is also clearly audible and no tools needed, because when the measuring swipe starts around 20-30Hz I don't have nice bass, instead what I have is an horrible "TRRRRRRR" sound (similar to a huge vibrator honestly xD sorry for the reference but I don't have better way to describe it ) which I suspect is either
A) The sub is vibrating so much that is jumping around and that's the sound with the repeated contact of the small feets with the floor, thus my idea of purchasing those special feets
B) The sub is making something else in the room vibrate, which I've tried to locate multiple times but I just can't locate the source of that sound
C) Did I got a defective subs for years and never realized it?

So I suspect the problem I clearly hear is also the distortion visible in the graph.

Below are the last 5 measurement of the whole system I've took 1 week ago (single point measurement), the measurement called "SUB" appears less loud than the measurement called "L+R+SUB" because the first has the "Room Gain compensation 25Hz" active from the SVS app, while in the final measurement I had turned that OFF to raise the response at 20-30Hz a little. Also the final measurement might have been performed at lower SPL... so hope that isn't cause of confusion.

 

[LIΟN]

First of all, I'm using a translator, so I apologize in advance for any miscommunication.

A) The sub is vibrating so much that is jumping around and that's the sound with the repeated contact of the small feets with the floor, thus my idea of purchasing those special feets
B) The sub is making something else in the room vibrate, which I've tried to locate multiple times but I just can't locate the source of that sound
C) Did I got a defective subs for years and never realized it?

maybe yes or no. we don't know.

Sometimes it works as a sort of vibration isolation device, but it's worth focusing on one of the things you mentioned.

I have is an horrible "TRRRRRRR" sound

Do you feel it as a sound or vibration coming from the subwoofer itself? Have you put your head close to it and listened to it (felt it)?
Alternatively, you can play a tone around 20-40hz and walk around the room looking for the source.
A wooden door might be shaking, a closet might be shaking, a ceiling might be shaking.
And that, of course, is reflected in the distortion graph you saw.


Let's take a quick look at your messurement together.
start with the treble you were worried about.

This is the part you said looked weird.

But if you look at L and R separately, there's nothing like that.
If the microphone is not centered when L+R is played at the same time, the response from one side will be heard first, and then after a certain amount of delay, the responses will be added together. So that's due to the position of the microphone, don't worry about it.
Below I've captured your issue with recording L+R when it's not centered.
Near 600hz, there may be an effect of the wall, including the back wall, but the desk is most likely the culprit.
If it's a dip that only appears in the 1point measurement, you can ignore it. (And if a person was around the microphone when you swiped it, that might also affect it.)
However, you can think about it if it also appears through a wide point measurement of approximately 9 points or MMM.

If they come in at the same time, there's no problem.

And what it looks like when we give it a delay (it doesn't come in at the same time). Note that

This shows how your overall response is coming in as you hit objects.
There is also the influence of desks, monitors, and walls.
While not all reflections need to be controlled, the impact of filtering is much stronger at close listening distances. This is where you will need to make choices. (Control the initial reflection points of desks, monitors, and other walls with Room Acoustics)
Sound travels 34cm in 1ms.

I don't know how this is crossed over and delayed, but your current woofer location might not be the perfect or best choice for now.
Of course, a single subwoofer has its limitations. However, I'm wondering if it might help you get the response you need if you put it in the center of the back wall rather than in the front. Every room is different, but you might want to consider moving it. To effectively manage bass, consider purchasing a second, identical subwoofer (front and rear placement).

EQ can't control everything that happens in your room, even if you apply it as you did, even if you use OCA's methods.
Think of the MMM that others talk about as a way to reduce the variation in listening position and prevent over-correction.

And you can apply the EQ yourself manually or use the AutoEQ function or whatever you're comfortable with.
But keep in mind that dip made by the negative effect of reflection after direct sound is not compensated as much as we would like, and we don't sound summed up in EQ.

If you don't want to change the listening position much, you can do this via Inversion, but it is very sensitive.

So the first thing I want you to try is to change the position of the current woofer.
And as I understand it, you can adjust the delay in the SVS app.

Reposition it and measure as shown below.

1. Measure the speaker L,R respectively.
2. If you set the reference timing to L, set the output to R to measure the woofer whose timing was calculated.
3. Verify this in the Align Tool. View the Phase and add the delay as appropriate.

And although it's a hassle, it's a good idea to measure L and R separately. If you need an average value for L+R, you can average the separate measurements using Vector Avg (simultaneous playback like L+R) or RMS Avg, DB Avg, etc.

Btw, your room size is very nice (a typical room in Korea is usually 2.3 meters high).
I recommend getting a stand, even if it's cheap, so you can place it somewhere other than on your desk. It's too restrictive on a desk.
And this is also a matter of taste, but in my personal experience, I prefer less toe-in at very short listening distances (<1 meter).
Matching equilateral triangle and toe-in at too close a distance can have a negative effect on crosstalk on both sides.

It's a great room, but I'd like to see you be bolder with the arrangement.
You might want to consider changing it to at least 1 meter to 1.5 meters.

 

[Marcus Aseth]

First of all, I'm using a translator, so I apologize in advance for any miscommunication.

No worries, thanks for the long reply =)

Do you feel it as a sound or vibration coming from the subwoofer itself? Have you put your head close to it and listened to it (felt it)?

Several part of the room vibrate at different frequencies between 20 and 45Hz, I think I've identified the door handle, something in the wardrobe or the wardrobe itself, and finally I suspect the "roller shutter box" (that wooden box on top of the window).
But the "TRRRRRR" sound is actually at 22Hz and I've realized is the subwoofer itself, I've played a 22Hz tone and in 15 seconds it rotated the subwoofer by some 30° clockwise xD
That sound is most definitely the hard rubber feet touching and detaching from the ground, so I'm very optimist about the replacement feets I've ordered ^_^
And hopefully the new room at the end of the year will take care of all the other vibrations.

However, I'm wondering if it might help you get the response you need if you put it in the center of the back wall rather than in the front. Every room is different, but you might want to consider moving it.

Unfortunately that's not doable, let me show my current room:


As you can see the bed is taking pretty much all of the back wall, and if I remember correctly once I tried putting the sub to my right but it sounded very directional (might even be due to the vibration problem, or maybe it was pushing air too close to me) :\
I wonder if raising it would help... like...90cm from the floor. Is this crazy?
You guys happen to know an Online Store selling platforms specifically made to hold a subwoofer? (possibly in Europe)

And as I understand it, you can adjust the delay in the SVS app.

I don't think you can, I haven't seen anything like that in the app. Unless you mean the Phase setup, that yes, it can be adjusted, although I don't know a way to calculate the correct phase setup to match my speakers best. I have it set to 90°.

Btw, your room size is very nice (a typical room in Korea is usually 2.3 meters high).
I recommend getting a stand, even if it's cheap, so you can place it somewhere other than on your desk. It's too restrictive on a desk.
And this is also a matter of taste, but in my personal experience, I prefer less toe-in at very short listening distances (<1 meter).
Matching equilateral triangle and toe-in at too close a distance can have a negative effect on crosstalk on both sides.

It's a great room, but I'd like to see you be bolder with the arrangement.
You might want to consider changing it to at least 1 meter to 1.5 meters.

I will 100% get the stands as soon as I move to that bigger room =) In my current room, they would take too much space.
Also as soon as I receive the big feets for the subwoofer I'll take new measurements with the MMMethod so we'll see how much of these problems will get solved by those =)

 

[LIΟN]

And this is also a matter of taste, but in my personal experience, I prefer less toe-in at very short listening distances (<1 meter).
Matching equilateral triangle and toe-in at too close a distance can have a negative effect on crosstalk on both sides.
I think the translation is weird: it's better to have no toe-in (speaker facing forward).

But the "TRRRRRR" sound is actually at 22Hz and I've realized is the subwoofer itself, I've played a 22Hz tone and in 15 seconds it rotated the subwoofer by some 30° clockwise xD

If movement was the cause of the problem, it might help to anchor it, but I've never had that experience so I can't say for sure. No Comments

As you can see the bed is taking pretty much all of the back wall, and if I remember correctly once I tried putting the sub to my right but it sounded very directional (might even be due to the vibration problem, or maybe it was pushing air too close to me) :\

oh.... I didn't understand your room configuration until I saw the picture. That's really center

I wonder if raising it would help... like...90cm from the floor. Is this crazy?

No, it's not crazy, it's brilliant. Spaces react horizontally, vertically, and, of course, height.
However, since your room is L-shaped and somewhat different from REW's simulation, it's unpredictable and you'll have to try it yourself to find out.

This is not representative of your room's response, but just to give you an idea, this is what it would look like on the ground.
However, simply floating 90 centimeters will not change the dynamic. encourage you to try Room Simulation yourself.

I don't think you can, I haven't seen anything like that in the app. Unless you mean the Phase setup, that yes, it can be adjusted, although I don't know a way to calculate the correct phase setup to match my speakers best. I have it set to 90°.

Yes. I was referring to the phase. It is somewhat limited compared to control through an external DSP, but it can cover about 6~7ms when converted to ms.
That's why I left the order of messurement at the end of the previous post.
Once you measure each speaker and subwoofer (reference timing), you can see how much time you need to delay or compensate.

I will 100% get the stands as soon as I move to that bigger room =) In my current room, they would take too much space.
Also as soon as I receive the big feets for the subwoofer I'll take new measurements with the MMMethod so we'll see how much of these problems will get solved by those =)

Many measurements are likely to be the starting point for many improvements. !!

 

[Marcus Aseth]

Wish I could change the title, because I'm using the topic for mixed questions apparently x_x
Is it ok if I keep doing that? The reason is that I didn't wonted to bother people with too many trivial topics...
Like this next question:

What distance should the speakers be from the front and side wall ideally?
I'm asking this because of this video:

notice the image there:

And I'm focusing on that "avoid between >1 and <2.2 meters... is this to be trusted?
And also from another source, "is bad to have the speakers at the same distance from front and side wall", again is that true, and how bad really is?

if combined, those two statements above mean I either have my speaker close to the wall (which I'm assuming is not that great) or 2.2m from the wall and I'm sitting closer to the back wall than to the front wall, which I think is inferior than being closer to the front wall, but need confirmation on that...
Another option for me would be to have them 1m away from the front wall and 80cm from the side wall, but is that ok or the two distances are too close to each other?

 

[LIΟN]

Wish I could change the title, because I'm using the topic for mixed questions apparently x_x
Is it ok if I keep doing that? The reason is that I didn't wonted to bother people with too many trivial topics...

I'm fine with that. I apologize if it makes others uncomfortable.

if combined, those two statements above mean I either have my speaker close to the wall (which I'm assuming is not that great) or 2.2m from the wall and I'm sitting closer to the back wall than to the front wall, which I think is inferior than being closer to the front wall, but need confirmation on that...

So it's a series of compromises.

http://tripp.com.au/sbir.htm

I don't know the exact position of the position, so I just put in my own numbers.

The front wall, back wall, side wall, top and bottom are all interactive, so it's your choice.
However, if you choose to increase the distance from the front wall as much as you say, you will naturally decrease the distance from the back wall, which will have the effect of making you hear the back wall early reflections sooner.
The higher the frequency band of the SBIR effect, the narrower and weaker the effect becomes (this can be somewhat easily compensated for by some room acoustics)
And if you go lower in the frequency range, you can let the subwoofer take care of the rest, but the location of the subwoofer is important, and there's also the issue of back wall reflections.
If you can move it, it would be better to move the entire speaker and listening position to the front wall (1 meter front wall, 80 cm side walls - you can also put the front wall closer to 1 meter).

And the discussion of VBA in the video in the original thread can be found at the link below.
https://audiosciencereview.com/foru...nd-attenuated-bass-signals.46426/post-1680396

 

[Marcus Aseth]

If you can move it, it would be better to move the entire speaker and listening position to the front wall (1 meter front wall, 80 cm side walls - you can also put the front wall closer to 1 meter).

Thanks for the help Lion, I've used your measures for planning things in the room I'll be moving to =D
It now looks like this (acoustic panels in pink, reflections in orange):

The wardrobe and the window shutter box are planned to be placed outside of the room, and I'll choose a door with a good firm handle - this should get rid of the most problematic vibrations. Also the speaker spaced like that hopefully won't interfere with the computer screen ( that above the desk in the project above is a 32' screen)

Hope that 73° angle isn't too wide, and I hope sitting at 42% of the room isn't considered too close to the center.
Three of the walls around the room are 30cm thick, but one of them is 10cm... I wonder if that should be 30cm as well for symmetry or if that's overkill and waste of space for no major improvement...
Anyway, I'm satisfied enough with the planned result, and everything else hopefully will get figured out once everything is in position =)

Also fun fact - this goes to show that even the most beginner audiophile with the least knowledge (me) will still overthink things... xD

 

[LIΟN]

Also the speaker spaced like that hopefully won't interfere with the computer screen ( that above the desk in the project above is a 32' screen)

You could try removing the monitor or using a monitor stand to at least put it at the same distance from the speakers, but this is optional.

Hope that 73° angle isn't too wide, and I hope sitting at 42% of the room isn't considered too close to the center.

usually say 60 degrees (30 degrees on each side), but don't worry too much about it.
An ambiguous angle of 90 degrees on either side (around 45 degrees on either side), which is wider than the angle you're considering, also has the advantage of stimulating ASW, but purpose and taste come first. 73-degree angle is about 34 degrees on either side, which is fine, normal.

Three of the walls around the room are 30cm thick, but one of them is 10cm... I wonder if that should be 30cm as well for symmetry or if that's overkill and waste of space for no major improvement...
Anyway, I'm satisfied enough with the planned result, and everything else hopefully will get figured out once everything is in position =)

Depending on the material and thickness of the walls, the acoustic center of gravity can change, but I don't see any significant left-right asymmetry in your existing messurment values, so I don't think you need to worry about it.

Also fun fact - this goes to show that even the most beginner audiophile with the least knowledge (me) will still overthink things... xD

I've been thinking a lot about it, and I think it's a personality and style thing.
Some people like to tinker and tweak, even if it's a hobby rather than a job, while others are looking for a one-click solution.
I've gotten rid of all my speakers now and use IEMs, but the whole process of processing and recording impulses was fun and obsessive, more so than listening to the music.
So I think it's very normal to have that struggle.

There are many things that happen in the in-room that we can't easily control, and the more we try to control them, the more we may have to give up or trade off many parts of our life, our routine.

What parts of my space I can and can't hear, and what parts I can and can't
and whether or not I'm willing to change for it.
everything will be decided.
I recommend watching Dr. Toole's talk.

 

[Marcus Aseth]

SVS isolation feets arrived today, and I couldn't have been more disappointed.
I would have been happy even with a minor improvement, but literally nothing changed...

Measurements below for the curious. Maybe this feet solve someone else's problem, but definitely not mine.

 

[LIΟN]

SVS isolation feets arrived today, and I couldn't have been more disappointed.
I would have been happy even with a minor improvement, but literally nothing changed...

Measurements below for the curious. Maybe this feet solve someone else's problem, but definitely not mine.

It's a shame. Cheer up Trying to heavy (or firm) the walls or the closet wooden doors might work.
I don't know why it was translated as "shame". I wrote, "You must have been disappointed that it didn't work."