What Am I Really Missing?

[RunPaulRun]

Hi. Frequent reader, first time poster here. This is an amazing site!

I have a 5.2 surround system but have a question specifically about streaming stereo music.

My current system relative to music is:
Apple TV 4k
Apple Music (lossless)
Denon x3700h
Salk BeAT main speakers
Rythmik 12 dual sealed subs

My preferred music is symphonic classical and classic rock. I typically run the AVR in Direct mode which bypasses Audyssey and the subs when listening to music. The music has little content below about 40Hz and, bass wise, sounds virtually the same with or without Audyssey and the subs. The speakers sound fantastic and have a surprising amount of bass response for this type of music. The internal Denon amp seems to handle the BeATs well without notable heating.

For the future I am considering adding a Purifi stereo amp and setting up the Denon to turn off the amps for the LR channels. In other words, minimize the role of the AVR to a DAC and preamp.

How close (audibly) am I to a music specific system; NODE, Qobuz, preamp, Purifi for example? How close would it be using the AVR in preamp mode with the Purifi amps? What am I really missing using the pedestrian ATV4k, Apple Music and Denon 3700 compared to something more exotic?

Thanks very much in advance. Please feel free to ask for more information if it helps to answer my question.

 

[dorakeg]

How close (audibly) am I to a music specific system; NODE, Qobuz, preamp, Purifi for example? How close would it be using the AVR in preamp mode with the Purifi amps? What am I really missing using the pedestrian ATV4k, Apple Music and Denon 3700 compared to something more exotic?

Nope, you will not gain anything, unless the 3700H has difficult powering your speakers.

High end exotic gears are mostly extremely neutral, uncoloured and transparent.... Basically what people called "straight wire with gain!". They are intended to reproduce sound as close to its input source as possible without adding any of its own sonic character.

Purifi is an example of a very neutral power amp, so you will not gain anything or hear any "magic". It will sound the same as if your speakers are connected to the 3700H directly. The only time you can hear a difference is when you are pushing the 3700H past its limits (105W per channel), purifi is around 200W into 8 ohms so there more headroom.

Btw, I assume that you are using Song BEAT speakers. ITs rated 100W @ 8ohms. So thats also the same limit as the Denon amp.

 

[JSmith]

Denon 3700

I gather you mean X3700h?

Denon AVR-X3700H AVR Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of Denon AVR-X3700H 9.2 channel 8K Home Theater AV Receiver (AVR). It is kindly loaned to me by a local member and costs US $1,199. Visually, if you have seen one AVR, you have seen the look of the AVR-X3700H: The input selector is plastic and...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Salk BeAT main speakers

These look nice btw;

Salk Sound

www.salksound.com

Response +/- 3db​	33Hz - 40kHz
Sensitivity​	88db
Impedance​	8 ohms
Amplification​	100 watts

JSmith

 

[RunPaulRun]

Thanks for the quick replies. I am pretty comfortable with the Denon's ability to drive the speakers. I guess I'm thinking more about the frequent comments that suggest ATV4k, Apple Music, AVR are compromises for music along with the great measurement results of the Purifi amps. Indeed, even the complementary review of the Denon x3700h here on ASR (why I bought it in the first place) includes the line "..it performs quite well (for an AVR)".

Another ASR thread (which I can't find at the moment) suggests ATV4k/Apple Music is only suitable for the kids playing Baby Shark then goes on to describe dedicated music equipment.

I assume some of this is before Apple Music (and others) started streaming lossless.

Just to be clear, system sounds fantastic. I'm just exploring upgrade paths that will actually make a difference. Thanks again!

 

[Cote Dazur]

What am I really missing?

Probably nothing, with such a set up, your attention should be on your room setup, speaker placement and such.
A picture of your listening room could help in steering you in the right direction.

 

[dorakeg]

Thanks for the quick replies. I am pretty comfortable with the Denon's ability to drive the speakers. I guess I'm thinking more about the frequent comments that suggest ATV4k, Apple Music, AVR are compromises for music along with the great measurement results of the Purifi amps. Indeed, even the complementary review of the Denon x3700h here on ASR (why I bought it in the first place) includes the line "..it performs quite well (for an AVR)".

Another ASR thread (which I can't find at the moment) suggests ATV4k/Apple Music is only suitable for the kids playing Baby Shark then goes on to describe dedicated music equipment.

I assume some of this is before Apple Music (and others) started streaming lossless.

Just to be clear, system sounds fantastic. I'm just exploring upgrade paths that will actually make a difference. Thanks again!

Ok, I would say that your first step for upgrading would be to improve your room acoustics. Get rid of unwanted sound reflections. It's often ignored but it's extremely important and benefits everything you change down the road.

 

[JRS]

As we say in the homebrewing community, "relax and have a homebrew." The intent is to chill and allay whatever anxieties you might have re that batch of young beer in the carboy. I get the sense that all of this reading may have caused you to develop a case of upgrade-itis. Symptoms are classic and I know the pain--an off hand remark made by Amir about" ____ for an AVR", and knowing that the Purifi is close to technically perfect as can be realized, leads one to the logical conclusion that you are missing out and the hankering/wondering/reading sometimes obsessively begins. I fought with this condition for years until I started making my own speakers....Then I learned to listen much more objectively.

Do yourself a favor--find a dealer who will let you take a Stereophile A grade amplifier home fir the w/e, or even better yet buy from a place that provides a window of return. That gives you time to live with the product and listen under a variety of moods as opposed to the anticipatory delight of a sensual feast. You reliably tell which is which or at least you are convinced. Bass is tighter, highs shimmery sweet with a new delicacy (in fact all attributes of existing stereo). So you understandably well take a shine to it at first glance, but over time you may start to question whether it really is that much better. Which is the perfect time to put your old gear bank in the chain and see if the "magic" collapses. IME it usually does not. Also fun if you have a partner and a way to match levels, take the time to listen to both side by side but with a blindfold on and see if you can identify one from the other. Even if you can, you may decide it's a small improvement not worth the $$, in which case you have freed up the money to do something that makes a difference: room treatment and DSP (something like Dirac live can be had for about the cost of a Purifi. The least expensive if you get new gear is the .miniDSP flex which a Dirac license can be added for 200 I think. If you dont mind a PC being in the chain, a stand alone license for 30 for the Schroedinger frequencis <500 and another 100 for the whole band,.

Edit: clarity and additional info

 

[RunPaulRun]

Thanks so much for the replies. Actually I have done quite a bit with room treatments and REW measurements. With a lot of work and a little luck I’m getting very nice frequency response above about 200Hz without room correction (Audyssey) and an easily correctable 40 Hz reinforcement in the bass region. I am also fortunate that only the MLP matters. No one else who listens even cares. It really does sound great!

The audio chain, however, is decidedly not “audiophile”; ATV4k, Apple Music and the Denon AVR.

Your comments have nudged me in direction I really wanted to go. Love the beer analogy.

I’ve even been listening to stereo with Audyssey correction (below 200 Hz) and the subs engaged despite the possibility of additional distortion.

Additional comments are welcome.

Thanks!

 

[bodhi]

The least expensive if you get new gear is the .miniDSP flex which a Dirac license can be added for 200 I think. If you dont mind a PC being in the chain, a stand alone license for 30 for the Schroedinger frequencis <500 and another 100 for the whole band,.

The cheapes licence option in their shop seems to $349?

 

[JRS]

The cheapes licence option in their shop seems to $349?

My bad that 30 was supposed to be 300.