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What about the HiFi-market

Doodski

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I would myself never rely on just measurements data . That road is a sure way of ending up with a hifi thats not fun to listen to . Both measurements and listening is very important for me .
I disagree in some ways. I've handled and sold many many customers and they will be changed by what a person tells them or by their perception of gear even if they have not heard it. People can be easily swayed and that can be taken advantage of or used to sell properly without corrupting their choices in speakers and such. Basically steer them to the better gear and let them choose is what I am saying. A subjective listener is prime meat for being taken advantage of. They often purchase gear that is not the best choice and end up with speakers and electronics that are not the best for the budget or needs. For some gear trust the tests and other not so much.
 

Tangband

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I disagree in some ways. I've handled and sold many many customers and they will be changed by what a person tells them or by their perception of gear even if they have not heard it. People can be easily swayed and that can be taken advantage of or used to sell properly without corrupting their choices in speakers and such. Basically steer them to the better gear and let them choose is what I am saying. A subjective listener is prime meat for being taken advantage of. They often purchase gear that is not the best choice and end up with speakers and electronics that are not the best for the budget or needs. For some gear trust the tests and other not so much.
Ofcorse one has to be polite but very sceptical when you walk into a hifi-shop . The best thing is to listen at home .
Trusting ones ear is a very good solution - free of bias if the listening is done at home.:).
After all- you use the hifi to listen to.
Reading the ASR reviews, its a good solution to avoid bad hifi in the first place, before buying.
 
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ahofer

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One can hope that the market is changing. I still see vinyl winning over younger folks, but not as much the rest of the expensive and potentially inferior stuff.

Speaking for myself, this site has made a world of difference to my shopping methods and satisfaction. I would hope others feel the same if they allow the difficult (and maybe not-so-flattering to one’s past) ideas to percolate for a while.
 

dshreter

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It’s not a surprise that most manufacturers don’t engage ASR for several reasons.

For electronics, there has become a hyper-focus on SINAD. Not by Amir but by forum participants. While SINAD is important, for many electronics the various features and processing are a large part of the value prop.

So if you don’t have top marks for SINAD, well past audibility, your product still ends up getting ripped apart by forum participants lamenting “why oh why couldn’t they implement the amplifier better, now I can’t buy it” and such. I see it all the time that good gear gets written off from purchase consideration.

For speakers, there is a ton of marketable value as objects / decoration / furniture craftsmanship / luxury items. The measurements though are only a guide to performance. If you focus ONLY on performance, almost every speaker besides Revel, KEF, Neumann and Genelec is basically unsellable (yes I know there are some others). So unless you can exceed those manufacturers for both performance and price, it’s not a comparison you really want to intentionally draw.
 

ahofer

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It’s not a surprise that most manufacturers don’t engage ASR for several reasons.

For electronics, there has become a hyper-focus on SINAD. Not by Amir but by forum participants. While SINAD is important, for many electronics the various features and processing are a large part of the value prop.

So if you don’t have top marks for SINAD, well past audibility, your product still ends up getting ripped apart by forum participants lamenting “why oh why couldn’t they implement the amplifier better, now I can’t buy it” and such. I see it all the time that good gear gets written off from purchase consideration.

For speakers, there is a ton of marketable value as objects / decoration / furniture craftsmanship / luxury items. The measurements though are only a guide to performance. If you focus ONLY on performance, almost every speaker besides Revel, KEF, Neumann and Genelec is basically unsellable (yes I know there are some others). So unless you can exceed those manufacturers for both performance and price, it’s not a comparison you really want to intentionally draw.

I can see your point, but I’d say it is not quite so difficult: We have Dutch & Dutch, Buchhardt, Mesanovic, and one-man shops BMR and March Audio with designs that often beat out Revel, KEF, Neumann & Genelec.

And there’s actually not much reason other shops can’t achieve hi end Chi-Fi levels of noise and distortion transparency in their electronics. It isn’t cost. I agree it is silly to fight about SINAD over 100, and some members may do that, but I’d think any company billing itself as state-of-the-art would view that level as table stakes, or stake out a more public position that the “black background” isn’t important, or isn’t a function of measurable noise (haha).
 

Frgirard

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I can see your point, but I’d say it is not quite so difficult: We have Dutch & Dutch, Buchhardt, Mesanovic, and one-man shops BMR and March Audio with designs that often beat out Revel, KEF, Neumann & Genelec.

And there’s actually not much reason other shops can’t achieve hi end Chi-Fi levels of noise and distortion transparency in their electronics. It isn’t cost. I agree it is silly to fight about SINAD over 100, and some members may do that, but I’d think any company billing itself as state-of-the-art would view that level as table stakes, or stake out a more public position that the “black background” isn’t important, or isn’t a function of measurable noise (haha).
Neumann and Genelec are sold on the pro market.
 

ADU

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By the way, i've never heard, "it's a fair cop!" before so which Monty Python skit or movie is it from?

Holy Grail when they "deduce" that she is a witch.

DonR is spot on. I think it was actually used in a couple different episodes. But the witch scene in Holy Grail is one of the more memorable instances I can recall...

 

Gekel

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The enthusiast niche is a tiny fraction of the actual market.
And it is split into two groups: the ones who believe in measuring things before taking them into account (found on ASR), and the ones who hunt snake oil products, buy 24 core high end server to underclock them and to decode audio data, put in high end RAM modules and do some other crazy stuff like spending thousands of dollars on a usb cables - just to feel good. You won't find them here, but I fear this group is even bigger than the first one.
 

Zenek73

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According to news like this China: MI5 and FBI heads warn of ‘immense’ threat https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-62064506
I'm avoiding buying Chinese products/brands.
I'm supporting European/Japanese/Korean etc. companies even if unfortunately still most element come from China and such products are more expensive.
And now it also means a lot of shortages and serious problems all over the world.
Measurements are also very important for me but not as much as avoiding Chinese products. Even if they are belong top measured by Amir.
When I will buy my next system probably it will be Germany,Belgium, Denmark :)
I'm not racist. I'm just thinking about our future.
 
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Vacceo

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In this day and age, there are no excuses to produce clean and pristine electronics. Elements such as DSP's, amps and so on can be executed well at relatively low costs. If on top of them you also want a fancy enclosure, then great.
With speakers, it gets more complicated as there are many "good" ways to design them (wide or narrow directivity, near-field or far-field, high SPL or not so high...).
 

Vacceo

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People who care about the equipment beyond: I need a home theater/stereo/soundbar/whatever, and purchase at a big box retailer or order from Amazon. Bose likely sells in five minutes more than Topping does in a year.
There is also no reason to not create excellent systems that fit the functionality of soundbars and so on.

That is why I got my pair of LS50 Wireless II. They are super easy to use, they work great for TV sound and they are were incredibly easy to set up.

I can see the nerds like us complaining they want further and more detailed adjustments (room EQ in particular), but the baseline of excelent design and engineering is right there. And that is precisely how products should start with.
 
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