• Welcome to ASR. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

What about Class ND (another fudge)?

Very well. But what does it achieve, beyond simply using say, a Purifi amp?
You get excellent sound and excellent specs without generating too much heat. Remember that the concept is from a time (the 90'ies) when decent, let alone true precision class-D amps for audio duty did not exist and were not going to exist anytime soon.
 
You get excellent sound and excellent specs without generating too much heat. Remember that the concept is from a time (the 90'ies) when decent, let alone true precision class-D amps for audio duty did not exist and were not going to exist anytime soon.
OK, that's about what I thought.
 
It is only possible to ensure that almost no alteration and only minimal phase shifts between input signals and output signals in the audible range and far above it (200kHz) occurs by providing a very high power bandwidth of at least 1 MHz. An amplifier has to operate extremely fast in order to avoid an alteration of the high-frequent music components. Hence, a very short signal rise time had to be accomplished.

Sorry Klaus, the quoted statement from the link here above speaks for itself. I assume that anyone technically sane knows what are the shortest rise times and frequency content in the distributed music. What are the limits of recording microphones and speakers. We are quite old to believe in fairy tales.
 
Sorry Klaus, the quoted statement from the link here above speaks for itself. I assume that anyone technically sane knows what are the shortest rise times and frequency content in the distributed music. What are the limits of recording microphones and speakers. We are quite old to believe in fairy tales.
Also revives the old "phase shift through the amp matters" argument that has been hashed out endlessly. A constant delay (group delay) imposes a corresponding phase shift but does nothing to alter the signal otherwise. I know you (among others) remember the big fight about how MHz bandwidth was needed to minimize the phase shift from input to output. That is just not a thing. Not even in the RF world, where designing an amp with 50x the needed bandwidth to achieve some magical in-band phase integrity target would likely get you reprimanded if not fired for incompetence.
 
One of the problems a lot of the early (and maybe present) class G/H schemes had was varying bias and modulation of the output signal with the changing voltage rails. That would not usually show up in a steady-state test, but often led to "interesting" transient response and stability problems. Another issue that occurred (I cannot remember which amp but chances are another on here does) was misalignment (in phase and time) of the low-power and high-power stage signal path that led to modulation and mixing of the two signals that again caused poor transient response and sometimes little glitches in the output waveform, not at the center crossing, but at higher voltage where the handoff occurred.

The main thing this article does is bring back bad old memories.
 
One of the problems a lot of the early (and maybe present) class G/H schemes had was varying bias and modulation of the output signal with the changing voltage rails. That would not usually show up in a steady-state test, but often led to "interesting" transient response and stability problems. Another issue that occurred (I cannot remember which amp but chances are another on here does) was misalignment of the low-power and high-power stage signal path led to modulation and mixing of the two signals that again caused poor transient response and sometimes little glitches in the output waveform, not at the center crossing, but at higher voltage where the handoff occurred.

The main thing this article does is bring back bad old memories.
I kind of figured those schemes were only used for Pro Audio, when fidelity was not the prime concern. But now class D has pretty much taken over.
 
I kind of figured those schemes were only used for Pro Audio, when fidelity was not the prime concern. But now class D has pretty much taken over.
No, they were rampant for a while in the consumer audio world, and there are a number of designs similar in nature (at least at a high level) in production today but the problems have been (mainly) solved. A.la. Benchmark's AHB2 among many others. It is possible to do it right, and usually is these days (I would hope!), but not something I really follow anymore. I do not know the penetration of class D into consumer home audio these days. Certainly significant, but a lot of current receivers, amps, and AVRs still use AB/G/H power amps so I don't know the percentage. That'd be interesting to know. Judging by other fora and magazines (which I no longer receive since the first of the year), class A and AB still dominate the mystique of the very high end (or at least very expensive) players.
 
Seems like marketing-speak to me. I've never heard of class N as they describe but similar schemes have been around for decades, e.g. some 1970's amps promising "class-A performance" by utilizing a small class A "helper" amplifier in parallel with a class B high-power stage, and similar schemes by a number of manufacturers ("current dumping" and so forth). Personally I am glad the ultrawideband fad has (mostly) faded away. The last thing I want in my audio system is an amp that can pass 1 MHz to my speakers.
My gut feeling is 1 MHz would be somewhat less of a concern than would be passing DC to one's loudspeakers... assuming regular old electrodynamic drivers, that is. :eek:

But, yeah, Class A and Class D together seems like... well... maybe drugs were involved.
It could be the perfect product for audiophiles who eschew electrical sensitivity in their amplifiers, though. ;)
 
Sorry Klaus, the quoted statement from the link here above speaks for itself.
Yeah, of course it does ;-) The usual marketing BS. However, they don't explain the basic working principle of the amp in the marketing, that's why I tried to answer this question:
And which part is class D and which class A??
 
New to me, but don't go looking otoh. More wondering if class G/H might be better?
 
Its a 14k$ amp with good specs into 2 ohm.

Funny how to talk about a BW of 1MHz (without input filter) but .. of course the amp HAS an input filter and should have an input filter as no one needs to amplify AM radio stations. They simply won't even state what the actual BW (with cutoff points) is for this amp.
They give a distortion number that is meaningless as they did not state the load nor power level etc.

Praying on the 'class A' people who are longing for class D power and efficiency and have money to burn.
 
Its a 14k$ amp with good specs into 2 ohm.

Funny how to talk about a BW of 1MHz (without input filter) but .. of course the amp HAS an input filter and should have an input filter as no one needs to amplify AM radio stations. They simply won't even state what the actual BW (with cutoff points) is for this amp.
Note that this bandwidth is specified up to a few watts.
They give a distortion number that is meaningless as they did not state the load nor power level etc.
Does it really matter? If this is the best it can do in optimal conditions, we already know that way cheaper amps can do much better. It's always interesting how the target audience can be wowed by large numbers like Watts and Amps, but are totally indifferent to distortion numbers. I guess the transition to SINAD as a numbering system is actually helpful in this, because now, more means better ;)
 
But, yeah, Class A and Class D together seems like... well... maybe drugs were involved.
I showed my Mini 300 the J2. It was unimpressed :D
 
Somebody who has heard of class ND?
It would be a combination of Class A and Class D, but for me it's abracadabra: About Class ND

Does it make sense? They write about that they have a patent, but why not publish this patent or link to it?
And which part is class D and which class A??
Reminds me of Devialet ADH Technology, a combination of class A and D both driving the same output terminals.
Thank you, only product available at this time, with that link, is a preamp so not ClassD, is it, but could be like Devialet Digital Pre Technology, couldn't it? They do not indicate what the Digital output is, do they.... @Vhond, perhaps you could ask them/ella and let us know :=)

Ah, missed this, Technical Data.... ELLA mk3 ® High-end power amplifier - Specs. Wonder if they are Real....
  • No Input/s mentioned, other than Input sensitivity which suggests Analogue, doesn't it?
Technical Data - ELLA mk3 - edition 2023

Output power:2 * 400 W - sine effective at 4?
2 * 800 W - sine effective at 2?
Small signal bandwidth (output ± 5 Vpeak at 4?):> 1 MHz - (measured without input filters)
Damping factor:> 800
Distortion (THD + N):< 0,0056 %
Input sensitivity for full scale level:± 2.25Vpeak
Input impedance:DC 20 k?
Power consumption without signal:27 V
Peak power consumption:2500 VApeak
Mains voltage:230 V / 110 V (optional)
Phase shift:20Hz < 0,00020°
20kHz < 0,030°
(Calculated from measurement at 200 KHz)
Propagation delay:<40 ns
(at 200 kHz inclusive phase shift)
Weight:20 kg
 
Last edited:
Small signal bandwidth (output ± 5 Vpeak at 4?): > 1 MHz - (measured without input filters)
To ask.... as BW is not indicated, could this actually be refering to the SF/Switching Freq. If Yes, then this suggests GaN output, wouldn't it, perhaps with a (Generator/Comparator/Gate Driver) twist? If No, then (perhaps) they are possably refering to some type of (output) HF/etc Cancellation Method, as mentioned by @Hayk. Without knowing the Topology, can only guess?

Too many Whatifs, isn't there, not enough information, and (very) poor Marketing (Price/14K)?
 
Last edited:
To ask.... as BW is not indicated, could this actually be refering to the SF/Switching Freq. If Yes, then this suggests Gan output, wouldn't it, perhaps with a (Generator/Comparator/Gate Driver) twist?

Too many Whatifs, isn't there, not enough information, and (very) poor Marketing (Price/14K)?
No. Small-signal bandwidth is specified as it sounds, for a small output signal, before the output stage requires large slewing for large signals. It varies by manufacturer but bandwidth at 1 W for a power amplifier used to be a typical number. As power goes up, bias current and output drive limit the available bandwidth for large signals up to full output power. Nothing to do with power supply or class D output switching frequency. In this case, it is the bandwidth of the low-power class A amplifier stage.

It says "no filter" but does not say if an input filter is normally part of the input stage and was removed only for testing. That would make sense but also means no consumer will be able to send 1 MHz through the amplifier. That is a good thing.
 
Too many Whatifs, isn't there, not enough information, and (very) poor Marketing (Price/14K)?
They're not marketing to us, that's for sure.
 
They're not marketing to us, that's for sure.
Maybe, perhaps amir will get to test/measure this amp then we will know a little more, won't we :=)

Perhaps, (very) poor Marketing/Website, is more appropriate, reasonable?
 
Maybe, perhaps amir will get to test/measure this amp then we will know a little more, won't we :=)

Perhaps, (very) poor Marketing/Website, is more appropriate, reasonable?
Someone will have to "invest" 14K to find out the truth.

The marketing might be appropriate for "audiophiles", but we don't have many here ;)
 
Back
Top Bottom