• WANTED: Happy members who like to discuss audio and other topics related to our interest. Desire to learn and share knowledge of science required. There are many reviews of audio hardware and expert members to help answer your questions. Click here to have your audio equipment measured for free!

What about "Bluetooth emitters" ?

Blorg

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
474
Likes
720
There are a lot of details as to how the different codecs work, plus measurements here showing they are measurably different.

https://habr.com/en/post/456182/

How much you can hear is another question. For casual listening, like in the context of sports BT headphones, I agree, it doesn't matter. But there is certainly the possibility of a difference in a more quiet listening environment with good equipment. I don't think this is necessarily quite like whether you can hear over 20khz. You need to bear in mind here as well that most Bluetooth codecs are absolutely ancient. Apt X is actually even older than SBC, it is literally from the 1980s. So SBC and AptX are not particularly sophisticated or efficient codecs, there are much much better ones, such as AAC. BUT even a terrible codec can perform well if you throw enough bits at it, and that's what AptX does.

AptX also has the benefit of a single standardised Qualcomm implementation with a fixed bitrate, so it's a constant that is competently implemented and you know what you are getting. SBC historically has had a wide range of implementations and you don't know if your device hasn't decided to fall back to one of the very low quality SBC modes. AptX you know you're getting 352/384, or 529/576 with HD. It's certainly possible to make Bluetooth sound bad, I mean for an extreme case just connect using the Handsfree profile and you'll see quickly enough that Bluetooth can sound terrible and very obviously terrible.

SoundExpert also has the results of some listening tests that also show a difference.

http://soundexpert.org/encoders-320-kbps

Note the "SBC XQ" at the top there is a patch to standard SBC to allow it to use higher bitrates. What I think it suggests, is that (AAC possibly excepted) the bitrate matters more than the codec, that SBC can be better than even AptX HD IF SBC is patched to run at a higher bitrate. (Worth bearing in mind that they have relatively few results yet on SBC XQ / AptX, so, the results may not be reliable). You can participate in the listening tests yourself so they get more data, they give you files without telling you what they are and ask for an opinion.

The issue with doing this is, to support this special SBC, you would need to root/install a custom ROM on your Android phone, or run Linux. Standard Android, iOS, Windows and Mac won't do it. But it does look like a very good option if you CAN get it working, as it has basically universal receiver device support- almost any Bluetooth receiver made in any way recently will actually process SBC at much higher bitrates. So you can get what is possibly better than AptX HD quality, to basically- any Bluetooth headphone out there. And all the headphone needs to support is bog standard SBC.

http://soundexpert.org/articles/-/blogs/audio-quality-of-sbc-xq-bluetooth-audio-codec

They don't have LDAC in those tests. But as LDAC runs at a higher bitrate, and it does seem that that is the most important thing, it stands to reason that LDAC will probably do well. Certainly at the 990kbps setting- at that, it is above the average bitrate of 44.1/16 FLAC and very likely can pass MOST content lossless. I find LDAC 990 to be choppy on my phone but possibly a dedicated transmitter like the FiiO BTA30 would have the signal strength to run it reliably. It's really not for me, it depends too much on environmental interference. Sometimes it's fine, when I'm at home, although I do get degraded range, it will break up if I go far enough away (to another room). Other times though even sitting right beside my phone, it's very choppy. 660 is rock solid though and that's still quite a bit over AptX HD which I believe is 529 at 44.1 (the 576 is for 48 or 96).

As noted in the context of "SBC XQ" there is also LDAC support now in Linux, so if you are running Linux you should be able to transmit LDAC from that with any Bluetooth adapter, with the LDAC encoding being done in software.

https://github.com/EHfive/pulseaudio-modules-bt

Someone managed to get it working in Windows using Linux in a VM as the passthrough, and a dedicated BT transmitter. I'm planning on trying this myself, but if you are running Linux natively you should be able to get LDAC working on that using Pulse Audio.

https://www.reddit.com/r/SonyHeadphones/comments/jebd31
 

HCT-5808

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
42
Likes
26
I found this thread looking for information about the Fiio BTA30. Seems like desktop based LDAC transmitters are not too common. I was planning on building a small stack for my office. Windows 10 USB to a Topping D10s. From there I'd take the coax/optical out of the D10s into the BTA30 (specifically for LDAC Bluetooth headphone use) and then use the analog out of the D10s to feed some small powered speakers.

Is there a simpler way to do this with only one box instead of two? All the various DACs seem to only support Bluetooth input if they have any Bluetooth support.
 

Berwhale

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Aug 29, 2019
Messages
3,948
Likes
4,956
Location
UK
The BTA30 functions as a USB DAC, you can plug it straight into your Windows PC. Techincally, the BTA30 will not measure as well as the D10s, but it's probably irrelevant and inaudible for your use case (small powered speakers + LDAC transmission).
 

Blorg

Senior Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2020
Messages
474
Likes
720
The BTA30 functions as a USB DAC, you can plug it straight into your Windows PC. Techincally, the BTA30 will not measure as well as the D10s, but it's probably irrelevant and inaudible for your use case (small powered speakers + LDAC transmission).
My understanding is that it can't transmit LDAC from the USB input. You need to use the SPDIF for LDAC.
 

keithm55

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2021
Messages
12
Likes
19
Location
United States
As a functional workaround/compromise I am using a DX7s between my sources and the BTA30. I feed via the coax out of the dx7s to the coax input of the BTA30. If I am sitting at my desk I use wired HD650's and if I want to sit beyond cable distance away I turn on the BTA30 and use sony xm4's in ldac mode. My only LDAC verification is from the LED on the fiio glowing white that claims to indicate LDAC mode. This light stays white regardless of the source I use to feed the dx7s (including USB from a pi4 running volumio).
 

HCT-5808

Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2020
Messages
42
Likes
26
As a functional workaround/compromise I am using a DX7s between my sources and the BTA30. I feed via the coax out of the dx7s to the coax input of the BTA30. If I am sitting at my desk I use wired HD650's and if I want to sit beyond cable distance away I turn on the BTA30 and use sony xm4's in ldac mode. My only LDAC verification is from the LED on the fiio glowing white that claims to indicate LDAC mode. This light stays white regardless of the source I use to feed the dx7s (including USB from a pi4 running volumio).
What's a DX7s? Is that a DAC with a digital out?
 

JustAnandaDourEyedDude

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
518
Likes
820
Location
USA
I found this thread looking for information about the Fiio BTA30. Seems like desktop based LDAC transmitters are not too common. I was planning on building a small stack for my office. Windows 10 USB to a Topping D10s. From there I'd take the coax/optical out of the D10s into the BTA30 (specifically for LDAC Bluetooth headphone use) and then use the analog out of the D10s to feed some small powered speakers.

Is there a simpler way to do this with only one box instead of two? All the various DACs seem to only support Bluetooth input if they have any Bluetooth support.

As a functional workaround/compromise I am using a DX7s between my sources and the BTA30. I feed via the coax out of the dx7s to the coax input of the BTA30. If I am sitting at my desk I use wired HD650's and if I want to sit beyond cable distance away I turn on the BTA30 and use sony xm4's in ldac mode. My only LDAC verification is from the LED on the fiio glowing white that claims to indicate LDAC mode. This light stays white regardless of the source I use to feed the dx7s (including USB from a pi4 running volumio).

did you ever find something? looking for a LDAC transmitter with usb input from PC.


Some DAPs may work for the purpose, but the Shanling M0 is the only one verified so far (by @Berwhale). I have yet to test whether the HiBy R3 Pro and Hidizs AP80 Pro will fulfill this purpose.

In the meantime, I can confirm that the excellent suggestion of the Douk Audio U2 by @Berwhale does work for me. I plugged it into a USB port on a Windows 10 PC, and Windows installed the device though it said that a device driver could not be found. I used a cheap Monoprice Toslink cable I bought at the same time as the U2, to connect it to the FiiO BTA30.

I only have 16-bit/44.1kHz FLAC and mp3 files, and the U2 works fine when served such files by Windows Groove Music Player software, which sees the U2 as a soundcard. If you need to feed the U2 with DSD you will have to install its supplied driver from the included mini-CD or downloaded from the Google Drive folder listed in the user guide. The U2 can output up to 24-bit/192kHz PCM and DSD64 to S/PDIF (Toslink and Coaxial). There is apparently also a U2 Pro model that can additionally output up to 32-bit/384kHz PCM and DSD256 to an IIS port in HDMI form factor for DACs or AVRs that can receive this.

The BTA30 connected to my Earstudio ES100 in aptX HD bluetooth mode (the little pairing light on the BTA30 turned yellow), and the music from my PC came through nicely. Next, the BTA connected to my Qudelix-5K in LDAC mode, and the pairing light on the BTA30 turned white and made me happy. Subjectively, the sound seemed better in clarity, though I have no clue whether this is due to an expectation bias, or due to a difference in volume, or due to ES100 versus Qudelix-5K, or due to aptX HD versus LDAC. I do not even know if the LDAC connection I get is the 990kbps or the 660kbps quality mode. All things to look into in the future. At least I have LDAC working in some fashion between my Win10 PC and the Q-5K. The U2 includes the very XMOS decoder chip that FiiO says it may consider adding to a future iteration of the BTA30, so no need to wait on FiiO for that possibility.
 
Last edited:

keithm55

Member
Joined
Feb 12, 2021
Messages
12
Likes
19
Location
United States
I too have had great success with the Douk Audio U2 as well. I use one to connect to my DX7s coax input from my pc, and one to connect to my DX7s optical input from a mac mini (the USB input to the DX7s is from a Volumio raspberry pi4). This has worked flawlessly since I got it 9 months ago. I did install the Douk windows drivers and the windows 10 device manager reports the device as a DX7s (XMOS XS1-U8) (it shows the DX7s connected to the U2). One time I even used a Douk U2 to feed an Audient ID44 optical in, again with no issues.
 

glucos

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
18
Likes
12
Location
California
Some DAPs may work for the purpose, but the Shanling M0 is the only one verified so far (by @Berwhale). I have yet to test whether the HiBy R3 Pro and Hidizs AP80 Pro will fulfill this purpose.

In the meantime, I can confirm that the excellent suggestion of the Douk Audio U2 by @Berwhale does work for me. I plugged it into a USB port on a Windows 10 PC, and Windows installed the device though it said that a device driver could not be found. I used a cheap Monoprice Toslink cable I bought at the same time as the U2, to connect it to the FiiO BTA30.

I only have 16-bit/44.1kHz FLAC and mp3 files, and the U2 works fine when served such files by Windows Groove Music Player software, which sees the U2 as a soundcard. If you need to feed the U2 with DSD you will have to install its supplied driver from the included mini-CD or downloaded from the Google Drive folder listed in the user guide. The U2 can output up to 24-bit/192kHz PCM and DSD64 to S/PDIF (Toslink and Coaxial). There is apparently also a U2 Pro model that can additionally output up to 32-bit/384kHz PCM and DSD256 to an IIS port in HDMI form factor for DACs or AVRs that can receive this.

The BTA30 connected to my Earstudio ES100 in aptX HD bluetooth mode (the little pairing light on the BTA30 turned yellow), and the music from my PC came through nicely. Next, the BTA connected to my Qudelix-5K in LDAC mode, and the pairing light on the BTA30 turned white and made me happy. Subjectively, the sound seemed better in clarity, though I have no clue whether this is due to an expectation bias, or due to a difference in volume, or due to ES100 versus Qudelix-5K, or due to aptX HD versus LDAC. I do not even know if the LDAC connection I get is the 990kbps or the 660kbps quality mode. All things to look into in the future. At least I have LDAC working in some fashion between my Win10 PC and the Q-5K. The U2 includes the very XMOS decoder chip that FiiO says it may consider adding to a future iteration of the BTA30, so no need to wait on FiiO for that possibility.
 

glucos

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
18
Likes
12
Location
California
Some DAPs may work for the purpose, but the Shanling M0 is the only one verified so far (by @Berwhale). I have yet to test whether the HiBy R3 Pro and Hidizs AP80 Pro will fulfill this purpose.

In the meantime, I can confirm that the excellent suggestion of the Douk Audio U2 by @Berwhale does work for me. I plugged it into a USB port on a Windows 10 PC, and Windows installed the device though it said that a device driver could not be found. I used a cheap Monoprice Toslink cable I bought at the same time as the U2, to connect it to the FiiO BTA30.

I only have 16-bit/44.1kHz FLAC and mp3 files, and the U2 works fine when served such files by Windows Groove Music Player software, which sees the U2 as a soundcard. If you need to feed the U2 with DSD you will have to install its supplied driver from the included mini-CD or downloaded from the Google Drive folder listed in the user guide. The U2 can output up to 24-bit/192kHz PCM and DSD64 to S/PDIF (Toslink and Coaxial). There is apparently also a U2 Pro model that can additionally output up to 32-bit/384kHz PCM and DSD256 to an IIS port in HDMI form factor for DACs or AVRs that can receive this.

The BTA30 connected to my Earstudio ES100 in aptX HD bluetooth mode (the little pairing light on the BTA30 turned yellow), and the music from my PC came through nicely. Next, the BTA connected to my Qudelix-5K in LDAC mode, and the pairing light on the BTA30 turned white and made me happy. Subjectively, the sound seemed better in clarity, though I have no clue whether this is due to an expectation bias, or due to a difference in volume, or due to ES100 versus Qudelix-5K, or due to aptX HD versus LDAC. I do not even know if the LDAC connection I get is the 990kbps or the 660kbps quality mode. All things to look into in the future. At least I have LDAC working in some fashion between my Win10 PC and the Q-5K. The U2 includes the very XMOS decoder chip that FiiO says it may consider adding to a future iteration of the BTA30, so no need to wait on FiiO for that possibility.
very resourceful, but isn't it sad we need this kind of acrobatics to get HD BT out of a PC?
 

JustAnandaDourEyedDude

Addicted to Fun and Learning
Joined
Apr 29, 2020
Messages
518
Likes
820
Location
USA
very resourceful, but isn't it sad we need this kind of acrobatics to get HD BT out of a PC?
I think that the higher bitrate achieved by optional proprietary codecs like aptX HD and LDAC took a few years to evolve. There is a trade-off between transmission bitrate (impacts sound quality), power, battery runtime and device size, reception range. Bluetooth was originally designed to be a low power line-of-sight connection. I believe that if both the transmitter and receiver are not constrained by a low power requirement, then Wi-Fi (regular, non-bluetooth) has no problem serving full bitrate HD music streams. The acquisition of the CSR company (owner of the aptX algorithm) by Qualcomm and the release of Qualcomm's CSR8675 chip with its aptX, aptX LL and aptX HD capability was a huge step up. Of course, Sony's LDAC has been around for a while but for quite a while it was limited to Sony devices. Another factor is that a lot of people in the mainstream do not crave anything more than the default SBC codec built into BT. Only some audiophiles have been willing to search out BT devices with better bitrates. Supposedly, BT 6.0 will bring higher bitrate codecs as default, though it is unknown whether they will match LDAC's bitrate.

Just tried the tiny BT-W3 dongle and got decent aptX-HD (no LDAC) but less than 10 ft of coverage. Might as well use a cable!
I believe you. The FiiO BTA30 has good transmission range even with LDAC. Because it is not a dongle and therefore the longer cable connecting it to the PC or U2 allows it to be placed at a vantage point with greater line-of-sight visibility, the range can be further improved. The Class I (and also some Class II) BT transmitters with antennas (so far all aptX HD at most) have pretty good range.
 
Last edited:

glucos

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
18
Likes
12
Location
California
I think that the higher bitrate achieved by optional proprietary codecs like aptX HD and LDAC took a few years to evolve. There is a trade-off between transmission bitrate (impacts sound quality), power, battery runtime and device size, reception range. Bluetooth was originally designed to be a low power line-of-sight connection. I believe that if both the transmitter and receiver are not constrained by a low power requirement, then Wi-Fi (regular, non-bluetooth) has no problem serving full bitrate HD music streams. The acquisition of the CSR company (owner of the aptX algorithm) by Qualcomm and the release of Qualcomm's CSR8675 chip with its aptX, aptX LL and aptX HD capability was a huge step up. Of course, Sony's LDAC has been around for a while but for quite a while it was limited to Sony devices. Another factor is that a lot of people in the mainstream do not crave anything more than the default SBC codec built into BT. Only some audiophiles have been willing to search out BT devices with better bitrates. Supposedly, BT 6.0 will bring higher bitrate codecs as default, though it is unclear whether they will match LDAC's bitrate.


I believe you. The FiiO BTA30 has good transmission range even with LDAC.
Returning the W3, just ordered the BTA30. Thanks for all the explanations (and for the tip).
 

EJ3

Major Contributor
Forum Donor
Joined
Dec 10, 2019
Messages
2,184
Likes
1,703
Location
James Island, SC
Hi,

Not sure this is right place to post this... If so, please feel free to move this post.

Here is what it is about.
I am connecting my headphones to my computer via Bluetooth.
To do that I use an ASUS BT-400 USB Dongle (this is a desktop and the motherboard is a workstation motherboard so has no integrated BT or Wi-Fi).

I am using this:
ASUS USB-BT500


index.php


Print
  • Standard
    Bluetooth® 5.0+EDR & Bluetooth Smart(Bluetooth low energy)
  • Interface
    USB 2.0 Type A
  • Data Rate
    Up to 3 Mbps(classic BT-BR/EDR); 2 Mbps(BLE)
  • Distance of Use
    Up to 10 meters (classic BT-BR/EDR); up to 40 meters(BLE) in open space
  • Frequency Band
    2402~2480 MHz
  • Spectrum
    FHSS (Frequency Hopping Spread Spectrum)
  • Modulation
    GFSK for 1M/2Mbps, π/4-DQPSK for 2Mbps; 8-DPSK for 3Mbps
  • OS Support
    Windows® 10
    Linux
  • Dimensions
    7.1 x 14.9 x 17.4 mm (WxDxH)
  • Weight
    1.9 g

which works very well to send to this from my computer upstairs, through a wall to downstairs 45 feet away (using a Full Power rated PS) https://www.amazon.com/Upgraded-BluDento-Bluetooth-Receiver-Speakers/dp/B07F6ZP5WF?ref_=ast_sto_dp
I hope that helps.
 

glucos

Member
Forum Donor
Joined
Jul 24, 2020
Messages
18
Likes
12
Location
California
The BTA30 works quite well as described above and has a decent range.
Some reviews said you can improve it further with another antenna. I tried two larger ones but the range was worse (prob poor match with electronics). Tried to ask their support but they do not reply. Also the BT sound volume is rather low, much lower than when I use my laptop's. Does anybody have any thoughts re antenna and/or volume?
 

cecelo01

Member
Joined
Apr 13, 2018
Messages
93
Likes
30
Using R2 as a network player, dac, bluetooth (UAT) and wifi with excellent results. Player HibyMusic.

20211015_202414.jpg


20211016_201410.jpg


20211017_212942.jpg
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom