Wharfedale EVO 4.4 vs KEF R3

[fineMen]

A15HP User Guide - Shure

Online user guide for Shure A15HP high pass filter.

pubs.shure.com

So, problem is the already available subs (that is two, right?) don't provide a high pass filter for the mains?

Shure offers a monophonic h/p for microphones. I don't know if it would suit the need here. But I already gave an alternative.

The mains run in a 30sqm room of a modern, standard ceiling appartment. That shouldn't call for a pair of subs to begin with, as the old. but also any new mains would be competent to fill the room. Anyway, to take advantage of the subs one could approximate an optimal result in just setting a capacitor of correct size in the signal line, before power amplification. The subs would be driven direct, without that cap from the signal line. The mains would be unloaded to some degree, resulting in at least 3/4 of cone excursion, maybe 1/2 with regular program, or even to 1/4 with 'special' programs.

The cost would be around 1$ (stereo). If it appears as a viable solution, or at least teases experiementation please come back to me.

 

[ZolaIII]

@fineMen adding capacitors to balanced line out of preamp to power amplifier would be a DIY variant of the A15 HP so not really different but certainly cheaper if he is up to the task and probably paying someone who is if he isn't. He really doesn't need either bigger driver's mains or 2.5 or three way towers when he unload mains from doing what cause most excursion on their woffer's (take a look at DBR62 waterfall plots). Problem is all the time that his amplifier is balanced only inputs or I and probably he would swallow 20€ for pre made HP connectors like those:

Harrison Labs In-line Crossover Review (RCA)

This is a review and measurements of the HLabs in-line RCA 50 Hz crossover. It was kindly sent to me by a member and costs US $27.95. I understand these are popular with car audio folks. Company sells many variations of this and also a custom version. The sample I received was "New Old...

www.audiosciencereview.com

or 500 € for MiniDSP Flex instead Topping preamp.
I don't know from where is he from or could you instruct him or make HP connectors (80 or 100 Hz 24 dB slope) yourself and send him?
This is as much as I can help:

high-pass-filter

By the way thanks from me.

 

[fineMen]

@fineMen adding capacitors to balanced line out of preamp to power amplifier would be a DIY variant of the A15 HP so not really different but certainly cheaper if he is up to the task and probably paying someone who is if he isn't. He really doesn't need either bigger driver's mains or 2.5 or three way towers when he unload mains from doing what cause most excursion on their woffer's (take a look at DBR62 waterfall plots). Problem is all the time that his amplifier is balanced only inputs or I and probably he would swallow 20€ for pre made HP connectors like those:

Harrison Labs In-line Crossover Review (RCA)

This is a review and measurements of the HLabs in-line RCA 50 Hz crossover. It was kindly sent to me by a member and costs US $27.95. I understand these are popular with car audio folks. Company sells many variations of this and also a custom version. The sample I received was "New Old...

www.audiosciencereview.com

or 500 € for MiniDSP Flex instead Topping preamp.
I don't know from where is he from or could you instruct him or make HP connectors (80 or 100 Hz 24 dB slope) yourself and send him?
This is as much as I can help:

high-pass-filter

By the way thanks from me.

Yep, the mini DSP. Here's why:

today my new R3s were delivered. Plugged them in, needed three parametric equalizers, 950Hz, 2,3kHz, 7,5kHz. The corrections were mild ranging from wide band 0,5dB (!) up to narrow band 3dB. Now the direct sound is flat as a pan. The in-room response then leans slightly, whilst smooth as can be, to the bright side, compared to my hefty horn loaded system. The overall tonality feels only that little tiny bit hifi-ish. First point of interest was the intimacy of a singer with her microphone. Not the least bad it may need some polishing still-- don't like hifi ;-)

Bass is light, but is filled up by room gain but only at a greater distance. At about 3m it is flat down to about 35Hz, in my room, without additional support from a backwall, though. With sub, but still not limiting the R3's output it's an other story. Plain perfect I would say.

Distortion--what distortion?! Great, really great down to the deepest bass notes. The three-way approach pays off.

Summary and conclusion: the R3 is way good enough for me and I'm really picky if not decadent. A parametric equalizer may be seen as a prerequisit, though. Otherwise the hifi-ish 'voicing' would distract from the flow a little bit. A sub is a valuable supplement, again better with e/q.

ps: I operate the R3s sitting on a side wall, not upright. It works due to coax design. Anyway, the industrial design is as good as it gets, the laquer appears to me as good as a show-car's, or a piano's. Wow factor. This visual package as a whole I don't have to 'sell' to my significant other, she will rip it out of my hands.

pps: @kolestonin, thanks for reminding me of my own needs

 

[prerich]

That's how I think it

But I would like to understand something.

Can we say that my current setup does not permit any further improvements in sub integration without the addition(or replacement) of a piece of hardware in my chain?

Can we say that my current setup does not permit any room calibration without the adition(or replacement) of a piece of hardware in my chain?

How true/valid are the above statements?

True and ......not so true. The road that @ZolaIII stated was another matter altogether, is that of doing your DSP/EQing via a PC....which can create obsessive compulsiveness LOL, and can present a learning curve that many avoid.

 

[ZolaIII]

@fineMen to tell you the truth I don't see KEF's R3 as a improvement, never liked their speakers much for the impedance deaps to and under 3 Ohms (in this case especially second impedance deap in mid-uper bass around 170 Hz which you won't be able to get rid of).

KEF R3 Speaker Review

This is a review and detailed measurements of the KEF R3 stand-mount (bookshelf) speaker. It is on kind loan from a member who sent a pair to me at great cost (they come two in a box). The R3 costs US $1,999 for a pair. The R3 is an example of superb industrial design by KEF: It oozes...

www.audiosciencereview.com

They also have cabinet resonance caused by port but it's not big and masked, certainly lower than with Elac's (waterfall plot). I don't think THD under 100 Hz is actually better than DBR62's (I don't think it's realistic to expect better with any speaker with 6.5~7" woofers as those already do it great for the size). Of course mids are better thanks to decoupled (and probably siled along with tweeter in same enclosure) deticated driver's. That's probably the main difference that you get. They are definitely not as wide disposition like Elac's (but I seen better, wider and higher mostly with berilium tweeters [old Yamaha and uper end Focal's] or great full range woofers like FE series Foster one's]). I would still both put a cork in the port (so that they are completely siled enclosure) and cut (cross) them with sub/sub's and as usually 80 or 100 Hz) which is not a problem for you. I hope you have fairly resistant power amplifier to low impedances (high A) and enough reserve power. I don't believe in Hi-Fi (as branding). Enjoy them they really don't need much of a correction and sound great (to the point of reasonable explanations) even without it.
But what to do with @kolestonin?
If I tell to sell power amp and preamp he won't be happy about it. And instead buy a power amplifier will little more output and with really good rated dB input unbalanced one's (along with balanced one's if he likes) and Mini DSP Flex with Dirac Live licence and UMIK-1. With a bit of consciousness and guidenc he could accomplish that for let's say 1500€ and would stay relatively simple to use. By selling preamp and power amp he could gain back at least 700~800 € (eventually even more) so transition in the end wouldn't be all that pricy but would include hustle in selling them.
Another question. Do anyone knows of nice normal good looking foam corks for Elac DBR62's front port's (because every time someone mentions socks i get freckles)?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

Dude, the Darko fog video - it was an April Fool's joke.
View attachment 277034
The cable lifters, and they false-physics they represent are a joke.
BTW, bi-wire is also a joke.
Now I'm laughing.

With Darko you never know. Some of his vids appear like April fools jokes but are actually not. So go figure.

 

[kolestonin]

pps: @kolestonin, thanks for reminding me of my own needs

You are welcome

You seem very satisfied but I can maybe identify a lack of enthusiasm behind your words? Given that there should be a bit of excitement factor on day 1. It seems that you say, they do the job, I am happy, end of story. Do I read you correctly? What were your previous speakers and how the KEFs sound in comparison?

Also, do you use stands?
Original stands have a height of 52cm and my stands are 62cm high. It shouldn't be a concern but I would like to have some feedback on how the speakers tolerate the non exact match of twitter with ear height.

Did you experiment with positioning(toe in, distance from back wall etc.)? Do they sound better toed in or straight?

 

[HarmonicTHD]

I don’t have time to read it. Please read it. The most important is: Have you had the experience of bi-wiring?

Utter nonsense. Yes I tried bi-wiring to preempt your question - no effect whatsoever nor is there a technical reason for it. And so called “experiences” are either marketing snake oil or based on biased sighted tests.

Been debunked many times over.

On Bi-Wiring

In principle, what is the difference between the two? Can the second method reduce the intermodulation distortion between high and low frequencies?

www.audiosciencereview.com

Same goes for passive bi-amping look for the respective large thread here.

Or come up with some hard facts if you discovered the miracle.

Sure a 50 buck Amazon cable doesn’t hurt no one. Buy it, but stop spreading nonsense.

 

[fineMen]

You are welcome

You seem very satisfied but I can maybe identify a lack of enthusiasm behind your words?...What were your previous speakers ...

O/k, as said, my original plan was to DIY something with the coax driver of KEF. This didn't work out due to a closed shop. I downgraded my expectations and came to the R3 as being 'good enough' which is the engineer's expression for just right, optimum!

Before: double 12" subs, mains = 12" bass, 12"(!!) mid, mid/tweet is p/a horn of utter excellence, compression driver likewise, active/passive with add/ digi correction measured to fit ...

But that came out to be too big.

Also, do you use stands?

For the time being yes, the subs. I'm going to redesign my 'frugal' living room--again. I'll see. That was the reason to switch to the R3s. The sub will become a mono biventilated bandpass. All people hate them ;-) I know better.

I'm not into the 'imaging' business of stereo enthusiasts at all. I cannot stand to sit (pun, right?) in the stereo triangle. It kills music ...

Still, the R3 got much of praise, and I think it is well deserved. Good ol' KEF.

 

[fineMen]

... mostly with berilium tweeters ...

Nope, as explained to the o/p already. These little guys are good enough. I had it all before, all cook with water, too often improvements exist in the minds, as if there was any, of the marketing departments alone. I don't fall for it.

This product is excellent and to the longest stretch just an honest offer. Enclosure resonances, what!?! Discussing minute details for no good reason, come on. I stop it here

 

[ZolaIII]

@fineMen measurements don't lie (standing there for all my claims that really ain't mine to start with), and yes if you cross sub's higher than 80 Hz you do need them next to main speakers and separated left and right. If you believe there is a 6.5 ~ 7" inch woofers that won't exhibit much excursion rate and THD in low bass on realistic full calibration levels please show them to me. On the other hand 12" subwoofer's can keep it reasonable low on such (low bass peaking about 100~106 dB). Don't mix one tone port roar to full 8~12 tones (octave to octave and half) of closed enclosure subwoofer's. I don't like KEF's, don't like alu cones (not even coted one's like in those) but that's me and my subjective choice.

 

[kolestonin]

This is my first listening space with some understanding of the importance of room acoustics.
I saw my room reacting impressively to every little addition(carpets, canvas, small wooden furniture etc.) and change in speaker placement(toe in angle, height, distance from wall etc.)
The second sub gave a big improvement in room modes as the sound is way better in every position.

The most impressive difference though is with curtains on/off.
I can tell windows in my back are exposed from the first tune of a song.
This makes me think that maybe the narrow dispersion of the KEF's might reduce the interaction with side walls and therefore serve me better in my current space.

It's not a big room, but I guess this L shape is quite difficult to manage acoustically.

ps1: In the past I tried the sofa where you now see the desk. Results are way better with current placement but I have no limitations in changing positions. Now is also very convenient.
I still think about future modifications though. Like inverting the whole setup with the speakers placed in the wider part of the room for example.
ps2: the big wall you don't see has two bookshelves full of books and some more canvas.

 

[fineMen]

@fineMen measurements don't lie ...

The most impressive difference though is with curtains on/off.

As an enlightened, if this term is in any way appropriate, DIYer I'm actually fully satisfied with the R3's technical design, visual appearence, construction and especially the full lucky bag it brings to my home. As an educated technician of some sorts with a knack for aesthetics in engineering as a process, looking 'through' so many apparatus I'm especially pleased. The so far quite happy sound appears nearly as an add-on.

Ignore the red, the green is single R3 in-room with sub at 2m of a distance. Previously mentioned e/q taken back down to 1dB or so, no e/q on bass. Bloody Panasonic electret (1,50$) captured the 40kHz resonance, sigh. Hope this won't irritate my bats in the backyard (really, it's exactly their ping-tone).

Please do yourselves a favour and don't uberproblematize things ...

 

[JktHifi]

Utter nonsense. Yes I tried bi-wiring to preempt your question - no effect whatsoever nor is there a technical reason for it. And so called “experiences” are either marketing snake oil or based on biased sighted tests.

Been debunked many times over.

On Bi-Wiring

In principle, what is the difference between the two? Can the second method reduce the intermodulation distortion between high and low frequencies?

www.audiosciencereview.com

Same goes for passive bi-amping look for the respective large thread here.

Or come up with some hard facts if you discovered the miracle.

Sure a 50 buck Amazon cable doesn’t hurt no one. Buy it, but stop spreading nonsense.

If I don’t do the bi-wiring on my speakers, the sound won’t be as good as bi-wiring. Probably the problem on my speaker/amp. The problem happened when I do the bi-wiring, the sound is better arrive at my ears. And probably the problem on my ears.

Don’t bring me the book because audio engineer is not my world. Audio engineer is too difficult for my brain.

 

[bodhi]

If I don’t do the bi-wiring on my speakers, the sound won’t be as good as bi-wiring. Probably the problem on my speaker/amp. The problem happened when I do the bi-wiring, the sound is better.

Don’t bring me the book because audio engineer is not my world. Audio engineer is too difficult for my brain.

The change is not real, you are imagining it. You can test it yourself by having somebody else change the bi-wiring on and off. If you don't know if bi-wiring is enabled you don't hear difference. Simple, no big brain.

 

[JktHifi]

The change is not real, you are imagining it. You can test it yourself by having somebody else change the bi-wiring on and off. If you don't know if bi-wiring is enabled you don't hear difference. Simple, no big brain.

The sound is different when it arrive at my ears. And probably the problem on my ears. Sorry I have so many problems.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

The sound is different when it arrive at my ears. And probably the problem on my ears. Sorry I have so many problems.

It is not your ears and every human might falsely perceive a difference when knowing something was changed (sighted test). However if you don’t know that something was changed (blind testing) the human brain no longer tricks you (biases) and you will no longer hear a difference from going to bi-wiring from a single wire with equal thickness.

 

[JktHifi]

It is not your ears and every human might falsely perceive a difference when knowing something was changed (sighted test). However if you don’t know that something was changed (blind testing) the human brain no longer tricks you (biases) and you will no longer hear a difference from going to bi-wiring from a single wire with equal thickness.

The different of the sound on my ears:
Vocal become more clear. More punch at the bass, specifically it can differentiate lower low, low, lower medium, medium, lower high, and high bass clearly. Etc, etc.
I don’t have sub-woofer because disturbing neighborhood. And it’s all happening on amp vol knob above 12 o’clock.

Probably these cannot happen on yours.

 

[HarmonicTHD]

The different of the sound on my ears:
Vocal become more clear. More punch at the bass, specifically it can differentiate lower low, low, lower medium, medium, lower high, and high bass clearly. Etc, etc.
I don’t have sub-woofer because disturbing neighborhood. And it’s all happening on amp vol knob above 12 o’clock.

Probably these cannot happen on yours.

Try a test as described above and I am very sure you will not hear those differences anymore. Or don’t do it, up to you.

 

[Snix]

A happy owner of R3 here, enjoying every second with them.
If I could buy them with 1150euro back then,,, it would even take me shorter time to decide lol