Wharfedale EVO 4.4 vs KEF R3

[kolestonin]

Hello,

looking to upgrade my Elac Debut Reference DBR62 speakers.

I have a 30sq meters living room, use is 95% music and 5%.....music and my favorite genre is soul/funk/rnb.

Never had a pair of floor standers, never liked them aesthetically but it seems I am in love with the looks of the evo's in walnut and by reading the reviews I understand that these are on the neutral/accurate side(to which I am used to), but with deeper bass and a better room filing factor(what I am looking for).

On the other hand the kef's are well known and really praised in this forum(and not only) and maybe a more 'musical' speaker but I think they will struggle a bit to fill my room and given I have 2 different listening positions(2,5m and 5m) I lean more versus the evo's.

I can find the evo's at 1500euro and the kef's at 1150euro.

What I want from you is to help me understand the + and - of each choice, give me some more insight on the ideal intended use of each speaker, which one you think will suit more in my case and of course whatever you think might help me.
Keep in mind that 60cm from back wall is the maximum I can go(30cm would be ideal), and that speakers will be paired by two svs sb 1000 pro subwoofers.
My amp is a boxem audio Arthur 3409/N2 and I also use a Topping pre90 pre-amp.

ps1: I also investigated the R3 Metas(can't justify the price difference with older model), Buchardt S400 MK2(6,5'' woofer broke the deal), the Linton Heritage(too bulky and not easy on placement), Arendal 1961 and 1723(for a reason I concluded that these are more home theater speakers) and more but ended up with above 2 choices.

ps2: I can have a deal(?) at 1500euro(same as the evo's) for a pair of Dali Oberon 9 but I think their 2x9'' woofers will be an overkill for my room and they will also require around 1m from the back wall which is not an option for my space.

 

[ZolaIII]

You don't use high pass at all? And your amplifier is balanced input only and 50 and cuple W (@ 8 Ohms).
How about you start using high pass filter and crossing sub's @100 Hz, would be good to move them to speakers both and letting them do left and right chanel separate (one chenel each) in that case. Unfortunately with your power amplifier it will be hard to implement high pass or at least expensive. Only thing that I can remember having both unbalanced/balanced outputs from DSP processors is MiniDSP SHD. Hopefully someone else's would remember or know something cheaper which would do the work.

 

[JktHifi]

I choose EVO.

 

[fineMen]

The R3 clearly. The Evo appears to me, with a DIYer's perspective, as a mixed bag. Two small-ish drivers in a huge enclosure, presumably driven in parallel. Which complicates the hand-over to the small-ish dome midrange, which starts anyway presumably too high in frequency range to really deploy the three-way's benefits. A cone mid would serve better. The tweeter is a show-piece of wishfull thinking, namely that an esoteric tweeter nodody else has must be better. The complications originate in a wreckless, desperate attempt to overcome the back then dominating cone (!) tweeters (1960s), before the dome tweeter was invented. The idea was only resurrected when the patent ran out and neodym was still cheap. It simply doesn't work. Any dome tweeter superseeds that thingy.

In contrast the R3 is a well balanced, down to the details actually successful concept, what else should one say?!

 

[BenjaminB]

Some time ago I considered to swap existing speakers to EVO 4.4. In particular as the were < € 1000 . Liked the look, reviews were positive. Finally I decided to stick the the speakers I have and later on found surprisingly many secondhand evo 4.4, some for low asking prices. Got the impression that some owners were not so happy with those, which just is an impression.
Conclusions:
1) investigare price of the Evos somewhat more, you might be able to find better price.
2) listen to the speakers before purchasing!! Preferably at home.

Myself, I would have gone with the Dali. In my view, clearly the best of those you mention. (looking at local prices confirm this, close to € 2000).

//BB

 

[kolestonin]

I also prefer the Dali's specs wise.
1500 is a very good price for these speakers.
I just read that they need some good clearance(20cm to 80cm manufacturers suggestion) from back wall and I am afraid they will not work well in my room.

 

[BenjaminB]

20 cm is nearly nothing .... go listen to those.
Whatever you decide you are likely to stick with those speakers for some years.

Edit: my current speakers are ~ 160 cm high and ~ 1 m from back wall. I love the their sound.

 

[fineMen]

I also prefer the Dali's specs wise.
1500 is a very good price for these speakers.
I just read that they need some good clearance(20cm to 80cm manufacturers suggestion) from back wall and I am afraid they will not work well in my room.

You offered us a glance into your living space. The Dali is a monster in relation to it, me thinks. You don't need it to be that way. The R3 is smaller, leaning towards being a bit small. But! Room gain comes to the rescue. In my space I have about 12 dB, which is always stunning when I re-measure my system. It is like I quadrupled the number of speakers!

Most probably you will accustomize to the crisp and clear midrange, the well proportioned treble, low distortion etc of the R3. Bass, the amount of, will step out of its role as the sole quality marker. And in case you may want to add a sub for let's say another 500 quit => perfect beyond any criticism. And you can still set foot to your flat.

See also: https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/kef-r3-meta-measurements.42219/unread, an increadibly well designed speaker. I can't imagine to dismiss it in favor of some pretty much outdated towers.

 

[BenjaminB]

well, I do not own any of these speakers. I have no real life experience of any of these.

It is noted that OP mentions KEF R3, but the poster recommending this one refers to a test/review of KEF R3 Meta. That review mentions explicitly the weak bass of the R3 Meta, OP have a wish to get at fuller bass when/if swapping existing Elacs.

I have no experience of Elacs either, but from what can be learned from specs etc they are good speakers. Maybe OP should consider just adding a sub to his existing set?

Personally I have an affection for light driven speakers (high sensitivity), such have often a large body. This most often results in a light sound paired with a good bass, without requiring massive power amplification.
The most popular way these days to deliver similar sound with smaller speakers are active speakers, with active crossovers, digital signal processing and one power amplifier for each speaker element. Most often complemented with one or more subs for the bass.
There are certainly other ways around this as horns (very large), panels (large, and most of these have weak bass). Its all about preferences, budget and so on.


That is why it is important to listen to speakers before buying! Preferably in your own home. Then it is also possible to really see how the speakers actually look - important aspect.
Don't rush, do not fall for some good deal - one use to have speakers for many years ahead.

//BB

 

[kolestonin]

Some nice feedback here.
Thanks.

Unfortunately I can't listen the speakers before buying them.

My elacs are very good especially after pairing them with 2 subs.
They are speakers I could easily live with, so there is no rush in upgrading and I can investigate all my options.
It is just that I want to change league.
And what I miss from my current elacs is more bass(I am a bass head) especially tactile wise, more dynamics, but most importantly better room filling.

So keep in mind that all candidates will be also paired by 2 subs

R3 Meta would be my first choice but given we have not a lot of reviews or measurements I cannot justify the 1000euros difference from the old version. It is also impossible to find a good deal on a newly released and so popular speaker.

Maybe the Linton's would be the best suite for my case.
Big bookshelves (almost tower size) with bass authority and stellar reviews.
I just don't like the fact they are so bulky(I think they will interfere with my monitor screen - look the pictures I attached) and I also did not like the reports of not fully screwed woofers. Which is not a big deal, but still concern for the quality control and the attention they put these speakers.

 

[ZolaIII]

What you miss is high pass and not letting the speakers to do peek bass 70 ~80 Hz in most materials in the first place. And you need to EQ bass all the way to 500 Hz.
Baying towers with two 6.5~7" woffer's or 10" one (as a equivalent) won't change much nor will help regarding room influences. Even with high pass @ 80 Hz my main bookshelf speakers (which are a bit less capable then Elac's especially regarding how loud they can go full band) reach white noise 83 dB (-20 dB) mono point (in mid sized room) and membranes don't exhibit much excursion (nor cabinets refractions). They are paird with two again less capable 10" sub's which again whose challenge to minimise vibration transfer as it is. I am not a basshead, I use equal loudness normalisation.
Until you integrate; high pass, EQ the bass, do vibration decoupling best you can and do basic room treatment I doubt you will get where you want (clean pulpy full bass with a good early-to-late arriving sound energy) no matter how much money you pour towards main speakers (considering that those you already got are very good with wide dispersion and can play very loud as it's mid to far field you are listening in and large room). But it's your money.

 

[kolestonin]

I visit these forums daily so I am convinced that what you say is fully accurate.
It is not so simple though.
What I did is setting low pass filter at 60hz via svs app.
Imagine that I am tempted to use their eq(also via their app) but I can't as I have not a base to start from. I don't know what these values mean, how they affect sound, what is my goal. Nothing.
So I have no idea on how to apply a high pass filter, why I need to do it and what I am aiming for.
You would say that Google is my friend and you will be again correct.
Also note that I would die to spend 100euros on a microphone and make some REW measurements. I am convinced that this the quicker, cheaper, and easier way to improve my sound. But all my YouTube sessions end in desperation. This thing seems way complicated for a person with no background or experience like me. And even if I read, watch, ask, know, I know that if I throw my self in this rabbit hole I will always be in doubt of having followed the correct methodology, having choosed the correct setting etc. And this is something very discouraging.
I guess that's the reason the average person like me is looking for better sound via upgrades.
Cause you only need to give your sweet money and no efforts.
Sooner or later I will inevitably do it.
I love the hobby, I worked a lot with placement as well as with room acoustics(no treatment but carefull selection of canvas frames, curtains, carpets, furniture).
So I enjoy learning and experimenting.
It is just that for the moment the whole measurements thing seems way complicated for me.
I also hope for a new(maybe more straight forward) software to be released. Or a Dirac price drop.
I said I am convinced for the benefits but not that extend so to spend less money on the speakers and invest in a Dirac licence.
And I think again that if you ask the average person if he prefers a pair of 1000speakers+Dirac or a pair of 1500speakers, he will always go with the 2nd option.
Even if it is not the best one eventually.

 

[JktHifi]

Some nice feedback here.
Thanks.

Unfortunately I can't listen the speakers before buying them.

My elacs are very good especially after pairing them with 2 subs.
They are speakers I could easily live with, so there is no rush in upgrading and I can investigate all my options.
It is just that I want to change league.
And what I miss from my current elacs is more bass(I am a bass head) especially tactile wise, more dynamics, but most importantly better room filling.

So keep in mind that all candidates will be also paired by 2 subs

R3 Meta would be my first choice but given we have not a lot of reviews or measurements I cannot justify the 1000euros difference from the old version. It is also impossible to find a good deal on a newly released and so popular speaker.

Maybe the Linton's would be the best suite for my case.
Big bookshelves (almost tower size) with bass authority and stellar reviews.
I just don't like the fact they are so bulky(I think they will interfere with my monitor screen - look the pictures I attached) and I also did not like the reports of not fully screwed woofers. Which is not a big deal, but still concern for the quality control and the attention they put these speakers.

Linton is not bi-wire, different from EVO.
Please note that wharfedale is very happy with bi-wiring. Use bi-wire speaker cable (take-out the plate connector behind the speaker) then combine it to single terminal speaker behind your amp. Don’t use banana plug. Cable content direct contact is better if you seldom move the speaker.

 

[fineMen]

I visit these forums daily so I am convinced that what you say is fully accurate.
...
It is just that for the moment the whole measurements thing seems way complicated for me.

What Zola||| says is correct. Not only that the most weight in pop music is on that range, but unfortunately with ported (reflex) speakers it is also the weakest range in regard to excursion or simply put, overload.

Without measurement the setup may become a challenge. Maybe you'll find a fellow who is willing, for some generous payment in whatever currency, to help you out with the basics. Regarding the high pass that's easy. Just set an appropriate capacitor into the signal line. It could take like 4..6dB of that 60Hz bass away from the main speakers, resulting in a 1/3..1/4 of excursion, which is a really huge change in the load. Like having a 15" instead of a 7" ...

 

[ZolaIII]

@kolestonin

Linkwitz–Riley filter - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

It's a crossover like any other. Low pass is left one on pictures and high pass right one. Slopes (how they go down) are different for ported/sealed speakers 24/12 dB per octave.
Main problem is that your amplifier neither has much power and only have balanced inputs. Other problem even amp had unbalanced inputs it's that SVS SB-1000 Pro sub's don't have high pass filters fixed at 80 Hz on their RCA inputs/outputs like non Pro one's do. So you would have to go with something like MiniDSP processors. Only the SHD one have both balanced/unbalanced outputs but it's rather expensive so hard for me to recommend tho it's in full all included what they can offer (streamer, Dirac Live [early to use room correction], UMIK-1 and it's DSP [EQ] processor of course).

Minidsp SHD Review Updated (DSP, DAC & Streamer)

This is an update to the review of minidsp SHD that I did a couple of years ago. My tests have evolved since then and company has stated that they fixed a few issues I found in that test. The SHD costs US $1,195 and includes a USB DAC, streaming engine (based on Volumio) and of course, DSP...

www.audiosciencereview.com

Flex is considerably cheaper (without mic that you buy from them separately, Dirac Live is optional [200$ licence] and not a streamer) and with some effort you can go without automatic Dirac Live room correction (using instead REW RIF generation and transferring it to MiniDSP) but it's your choice optional either balanced or unbalanced or digital not a combo of balanced/unbalanced.
It really isn't all that hard to learn how to setup UMIK-1 with correction file (and even without it it will work) and doing white/pink noise measurements with REW.
As much as I know SVS SB-1000 Pro is limited to 3 PEQ's and only range it will cover and you do need to PEQ all the way to 500 Hz.
I use subwoofer's with fixed high pass filters @ 80 Hz and JRiver laptop for reproduction. Which is both cheaper and easier but limited to 80 Hz high pass filter and laptop as a source. Mentioning JRiver in the first place because it has equal loudness normalisation integrated trough international volume which is hard to get.
It looks like this:

And again to bury basshead/not basshead discussion.
It all may seam as very complicated to do but you will have help from members hire in getting it done.

 

[Battlebeast]

Maybe look at Heco since you're in the EU

Celan Revolution

The HECO Celan range has been thrilling music lovers and home cinema fans around the world for three generations now. However, rather than rest on their laurels, our design and development team wanted to create a unique, standalone loudspeaker family in…

heco-audio.de

 

[fineMen]

Hello,

looking to upgrade my Elac Debut Reference DBR62 speakers.

I have a 30sq meters living room, ...

I've got a 150sqm open plan flat with an additional wintergarden of similar size. I just ordered my new pair of R3 because I found my own recommendation too convincing

Maybe I keep just my massive subwoofers and the digital loudspeaker management system, and get rid of my other, extremely promising DIY stuff. I made my way and now know too much to still feel interested in the field. End game? Most probably so. I'll report back.

 

[kolestonin]

I've got a 150sqm open plan flat with an additional wintergarden of similar size. I just ordered my new pair of R3 because I found my own recommendation too convincing

It's funny how my post triggered you to buy new speakers.
You will also have them before I put my hands on mine

But the recommendation was influencer level I have to admit.

I lost the previous deal though and now I will need to wait for another one to appear.
While checking other options as well.

 

[fineMen]

It's funny how my post triggered you ...

Not just, the European source for raw KEF drivers got closed before my eyes. I always had a knack for KEF, since the 70s namely, because of their mindset of well documented engineering and such. They always felt real, which accomodates my self-image.

My personal goal with the purchase is to liberate the R3 out of the dungeon of market targeting, which they already did, to some degree, with the 'meta' release, new 'voicing' etc. Let's see if I could possibly limit the Doppler to reasonable levels up to 104dB (single tone)? With the current pricing, for the educated customer, the R3 is way too atractive to say no. In other words, I'm going to re-tune it. But again, given as is, it's a marvel already. And if it was only about the fun to own some other people's reason, as a piece of art, no b/s.

 

[JktHifi]

Linton is not bi-wire, different from EVO.
Please note that wharfedale is very happy with bi-wiring. Use bi-wire speaker cable (take-out the plate connector behind the speaker) then combine it to single terminal speaker behind your amp. Don’t use banana plug. Cable content direct contact is better if you seldom move the speaker.

Cut all these banana plugs and throw them away. Direct contact between copper and terminal is better.