noiseangel
Active Member
I'll be up front and totally honest here,I am a cable denier.Just so you know where my vote is going.
Does it matter if I use zip cord for speaker cables?
Does it matter if I use zip cord for speaker cables?
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Western Electric WE16GA versus Ordinary Cable (Any cable for that matter)
- Thread starter noiseangel
- Start date
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- cables speaker cables
There are a bazillion threads on this. No, as long as they are large enough for the job. "Large enough" is more complex than just a single number, but rules of thumb abound. Roger Russell's (RIP) site has a good overview: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm
From an Ebay advert for WE16GA: "The bottom line this mix of Cooper with tin metals is better conductor than any Cooper and this have the best of both world. " A quick search shows the resistivity of copper is about 1.7e-8, silver is 1.6e-8 (a hair better), and tin is 1.1e-7 (about 6.5 times worse than copper), all in ohm-m. So very wrong, assuming "cooper" is copper and not some new material I've never heard of. Wish I could just make up facts like that.
For the record, gold is 2.4e-8 ohm-m, so a little worse than copper or silver (and yet much better than tin), but resists oxidation ("rust") so is often used as an external coating for connectors. Gold is not a better conductor than copper despite the occasional marketing blurbs.
Blah - Don
From an Ebay advert for WE16GA: "The bottom line this mix of Cooper with tin metals is better conductor than any Cooper and this have the best of both world. " A quick search shows the resistivity of copper is about 1.7e-8, silver is 1.6e-8 (a hair better), and tin is 1.1e-7 (about 6.5 times worse than copper), all in ohm-m. So very wrong, assuming "cooper" is copper and not some new material I've never heard of. Wish I could just make up facts like that.
For the record, gold is 2.4e-8 ohm-m, so a little worse than copper or silver (and yet much better than tin), but resists oxidation ("rust") so is often used as an external coating for connectors. Gold is not a better conductor than copper despite the occasional marketing blurbs.
Blah - Don
OP
noiseangel
Active Member
- Thread Starter
- #3
From another forum where a guy making cables saying he was using WE16.Turns out he was using plain old zip cord or building wire or whatever he could get his hands on.It's a really interesting read where everyone who bought his cables all said they heard a great improvement.That sums up the cable debate right there.Lots of people saying how good they were.However,the cables weren't terminated properly,they used common house wiring,they were 1/3 the price of similar cables.Now if only something like this could befall SR.
So if it was just plain old cable and this bonehead heard a difference,it was all in his latex filled cranium?What a dumb ass admitting that on a public forum.I would have kept my mouth shut and tail between my legs very private.But then again I am a cable denier so said cables would never have been bought in the first place.
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To me those speaker cables look no different than wiring you’d find in an electric oven, toaster or from an old 1930’s radio ! I remember before that vendor got banned and he was a paying sponsor on that forum there was a sponsor thread about those Western Electric cables he was selling and there was nothing but praise and glowing accommodations for his products from all of his customers. You can still find all of those threads on the way-back machine. And now the witch hunt has started, they are all turning against him including the one who put him on a pedestal in the first place which is a bit like the dude who causes a car accident, gets out of the car when no one is looking and then mingles with the on-lookers pretending not to have anything to do with it or in other words trying hard to cover his own butt whilst creating a distraction ☹
DanielT
Master Contributor
Tip:
OFC or CCA speaker cable?
Same price OFC (Oxygen Free Copper) 2.5 mm2 VS CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) 4 mm2. Length about 3 meters / 9ft between speaker - amplifier. Not a subwoffer. Does it matter which one I choose? Good price on the cables. 10 meter / 32ft for $18.:)
audiosciencereview.com
sofrep811
Active Member
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- Jun 4, 2016
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- 281
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- 352
Looks like he PO’d too many people. End of the day— people don’t like to look dumb and will fight those implying they’re dumb like their life depended on it.
Bill's Cables - Further Action and Recourse Procedure
*** IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR PEOPLE WHO ORDERED GOODS FROM "BILL'S CABLES", WHO DID NOT RECEIVE THE GOODS WHICH THEY ORDERED, WHO REQUESTED A REFUND OF MONEY FOR THOSE GOODS, AND WHO HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE REFUND. WHICH THEY REQUESTED. *** It is now very clear that a number of SNA members (and pe...
www.stereonet.com
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noiseangel
Active Member
- Thread Starter
- #7
That's all I useTip:
OFC or CCA speaker cable?
Same price OFC (Oxygen Free Copper) 2.5 mm2 VS CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) 4 mm2. Length about 3 meters / 9ft between speaker - amplifier. Not a subwoffer. Does it matter which one I choose? Good price on the cables. 10 meter / 32ft for $18.:)
But they all said it was good stuff back in early 2021 and now all of a sudden it is not good stuff so lets have a witch hunt and defame and vilify the dude at the same timeLooks like he PO’d too many people. End of the day— people don’t like to look dumb and will fight those implying they’re dumb like their life depended on it.
Bill's Cables - Further Action and Recourse Procedure
*** IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR PEOPLE WHO ORDERED GOODS FROM "BILL'S CABLES", WHO DID NOT RECEIVE THE GOODS WHICH THEY ORDERED, WHO REQUESTED A REFUND OF MONEY FOR THOSE GOODS, AND WHO HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE REFUND. WHICH THEY REQUESTED. *** It is now very clear that a number of SNA members (and pe...
Reviews on Western Electric Cables
Just thought I’d start a spot here if anyone wants to leave a review
web.archive.org
The problem is they have to prove what they bought is inferior to what they expected and from what I can see they originally agreed it met their original expectations, and how many are equipped like Amir to prove otherwise and even if they could, what would they expect to find given that Amir has tested 5 dollar cables that are indistinguishable from the uber expensive types ?? The only complaint I can see is on quality and workmanship which could be addressed with a simple repair and without having to refund the full amount. I don't think any judge worth his salt is going to fall for the subjective witchcraft movement when so many were giving glowing endorsements in the first place
LOLcheers
OP
noiseangel
Active Member
- Thread Starter
- #9
I've been to court.Science takes precedence over subjectivity."I found it was sonically better than my previous cable,until I opened it up.Now I see it's only building wire it sounds terrible.Ive been duped."Would the Golden ears have picked it?
Most of the claims are vexatious and frivolous and won't stand up in a court of law. From what I can see is the cables can be made right by someone with good soldering skills and that is all that is required. It certainly doesn't justify vilifying or defaming the guy and these people don't appear to know the defamation laws in Australia as it applies to small businesses
cheers
OP
noiseangel
Active Member
- Thread Starter
- #11
Maybe he could try,"When I found out it was building wire the soundstage disappeared". Judge says,"Did this soundstage disappear as a result of opening the cable?".
Next question from the judge:- "Did you confirm this with a double blind test ??"
LOL
Killingbeans
Major Contributor
This combined with the whole MoFi vinyl " digital scandal" and I'm starting to feel some serious schadenfroh... can't help it.
Or this 14 gauge silicon coated speaker wire from our local hardware store is more than adequate and even better when used in an active speaker system to drive the speaker driver directly. I figure the single strand voice coil wire used in the actual speaker driver is a hell of a lot thinner than this so there should be no issues with short direct runs between amp and speaker driver right ??Tip:
OFC or CCA speaker cable?
Same price OFC (Oxygen Free Copper) 2.5 mm2 VS CCA (Copper Clad Aluminum) 4 mm2. Length about 3 meters / 9ft between speaker - amplifier. Not a subwoffer. Does it matter which one I choose? Good price on the cables. 10 meter / 32ft for $18.:)
OP
noiseangel
Active Member
- Thread Starter
- #15
12" of coat hanger wire from amplifier to driver wouldn't make any difference.Or this 14 gauge silicon coated speaker wire from our local hardware store is more than adequate and even better when used in an active speaker system to drive the speaker driver directly. I figure the single strand voice coil wire used in the actual speaker driver is a hell of a lot thinner than this so there should be no issues with short direct runs between amp and speaker driver right ??
Reminds me of quantum entanglement. The performance of a mint cable is affected by cutting open a different cable.
Or the experiment changes when you observe it
OP
noiseangel
Active Member
- Thread Starter
- #18
That sounds like the theory that somewhere in a parallel universe I exist as opposite of who I am here.The opposite me thinks cables do make a difference.What a douchebag.
Paul_Sound48
New Member
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Quite a few of the posts above contain judgements about people on another audio forum, using expressions such as "this bonehead", "what a dumbass", "let's have a witch hunt and defame and vilify the dude at the same time".
Also ""most of the claims are vexatious and frivolous and won't stand up in a court of law", "from what I can see, the cables can be made right by someone with good soldering skills and that is all that is required", "the problem is that they have to prove what they bought is inferior to what they expected" etc.
It may help people on this forum to better understand the key issues which are actually at stake, with a few statements of fact:
1. A number of people have lodged claims with the Queensland Civil and Administrative Tribunal (QCAT) because late in 2021/early 2022 they paid money to a Queensland resident for cables (of various types). They never received their cables. Their multiple/repeated requests for refunds of money have not been answered with a return of their money.
More than 6 months later, and still waiting for their refunds, they have applied to QCAT for orders to be made for their money to be refunded.
Reasonable or unreasonable?
2. Others made orders (and paid money) to the same person for cables which were to be made from "vintage Western Electric cable from the 1950s, and they paid prices which reflected the rarity of such cables (when genuine WE, not counterfeit).
None of the people taking action received WE cable (of any type or vintage, and certainly NOT vintage Western Electric cable from the 1950s).They received cables made of something altogether different (sometimes not even audio cable of any type or make). This is defined as a "major problem" under Australian Consumer Law, and so they are entitled to seek (and receive) a full refund of their money, upon return of the counterfeit goods. They are seeking such refunds.
Reasonable or unreasonable?
3. Others made orders (and paid money) to the same person for the supply of audio power cords, which were advertised with a written guarantee that such would be "tested and tagged" etc.
Upon the failure of one of the provided cords (burning out of the cord, tripping of household safety switches, fuses in multiple equipment being blown etc), it was discovered (via investigation) that the manufacturer/supplier is not the holder of an Electrical Licence (as is required to manufacture such cables for sale in Australia), the cables were never tested/certified/properly marked as is required in Australia/New Zealand and that therefore multiple breaches of the relevant Electrical Safety Act, Regulation, Australian/New Zealand Standards, and EESS requirements have occurred.
Several purchasers of such power cords are applying to have their money refunded.
Reasonable or unreasonable?
Everything in the above 3 points comprises provable statements of fact, not opinion.
I won't be going into further detail, or engaging in debate about the matter on this forum, today or at any other time, before the matter is determined in the appropriate place and time.
This is an international forum. I do not know what consumer protection laws apply outside of Australia for matters such as the above, but within Australia, the consumer protection laws about the matters summarised above are detailed by the ACCC for those who are interested.
The matters about which a number of people are taking action have nothing to do with whether people can tell the difference between one type of cable or another. As an aside, despite the certainties expressed by some above, there are people who have much better "ears" than I, who can provably and repeatably tell the differences between cables, in double blind tests etc. They may be a small minority of audiophiles, but they exist, and I have witnessed a couple of them "do it".
Whether such differences warrant the prices charged for some cables is also not the point of the action which is being taken by some people who were scammed by another person.
Hopefully after reading the above, there need be nobody left in doubt on this forum about the reasons why these matters are being pursued, or the consumer legal matters which will come into play when the matters are determined.
Also ""most of the claims are vexatious and frivolous and won't stand up in a court of law", "from what I can see, the cables can be made right by someone with good soldering skills and that is all that is required", "the problem is that they have to prove what they bought is inferior to what they expected" etc.
It may help people on this forum to better understand the key issues which are actually at stake, with a few statements of fact:
1. A number of people have lodged claims with the Queensland Civil and Administrative Tribunal (QCAT) because late in 2021/early 2022 they paid money to a Queensland resident for cables (of various types). They never received their cables. Their multiple/repeated requests for refunds of money have not been answered with a return of their money.
More than 6 months later, and still waiting for their refunds, they have applied to QCAT for orders to be made for their money to be refunded.
Reasonable or unreasonable?
2. Others made orders (and paid money) to the same person for cables which were to be made from "vintage Western Electric cable from the 1950s, and they paid prices which reflected the rarity of such cables (when genuine WE, not counterfeit).
None of the people taking action received WE cable (of any type or vintage, and certainly NOT vintage Western Electric cable from the 1950s).They received cables made of something altogether different (sometimes not even audio cable of any type or make). This is defined as a "major problem" under Australian Consumer Law, and so they are entitled to seek (and receive) a full refund of their money, upon return of the counterfeit goods. They are seeking such refunds.
Reasonable or unreasonable?
3. Others made orders (and paid money) to the same person for the supply of audio power cords, which were advertised with a written guarantee that such would be "tested and tagged" etc.
Upon the failure of one of the provided cords (burning out of the cord, tripping of household safety switches, fuses in multiple equipment being blown etc), it was discovered (via investigation) that the manufacturer/supplier is not the holder of an Electrical Licence (as is required to manufacture such cables for sale in Australia), the cables were never tested/certified/properly marked as is required in Australia/New Zealand and that therefore multiple breaches of the relevant Electrical Safety Act, Regulation, Australian/New Zealand Standards, and EESS requirements have occurred.
Several purchasers of such power cords are applying to have their money refunded.
Reasonable or unreasonable?
Everything in the above 3 points comprises provable statements of fact, not opinion.
I won't be going into further detail, or engaging in debate about the matter on this forum, today or at any other time, before the matter is determined in the appropriate place and time.
This is an international forum. I do not know what consumer protection laws apply outside of Australia for matters such as the above, but within Australia, the consumer protection laws about the matters summarised above are detailed by the ACCC for those who are interested.
The matters about which a number of people are taking action have nothing to do with whether people can tell the difference between one type of cable or another. As an aside, despite the certainties expressed by some above, there are people who have much better "ears" than I, who can provably and repeatably tell the differences between cables, in double blind tests etc. They may be a small minority of audiophiles, but they exist, and I have witnessed a couple of them "do it".
Whether such differences warrant the prices charged for some cables is also not the point of the action which is being taken by some people who were scammed by another person.
Hopefully after reading the above, there need be nobody left in doubt on this forum about the reasons why these matters are being pursued, or the consumer legal matters which will come into play when the matters are determined.
DanielT
Master Contributor
So an internet scammer? And people who give money to him before delivery of the goods were cheated?
If that is the case then it is sad, unfortunately the internet scams and internet fraudsters are growing. Nowadays I never buy anything, HiFi or otherwise, from an unknown person (legitimate recognized serious company another thing) and give that person all the money for the item before delivery.I exclude auction sites where the seller is verified as serious, there I can pay before delivery. Example, see attached picture 507 positive reviews about that seller, 0 negative. Pretty safe to buy something, and pay before delivery, from that seller.
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