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Was this aimed at ASR?

XaVierDK

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I don't get why hifi specifically is this way. In computer graphics, we had a period of YEARS, where the GPU manufacturers tried to sneak "optimizations", ie. performance-improving image-degradation past reviewers and consumers alike, and only stopped when they were called on it. There was no talk or someone "liking" the objectively degraded or distorted image.
Same goes today with TVs and monitors. There's no talk in reviews or industry documents about "pleasing" deviations from the intended image. Every screen is expected to be able to hit the same standards. Sure, most let you tweak or add image enhancements or interpolation and such, but the screens aren't judged like they come out the box because THAT'S NOT RIGHT.
Where did this "our hearing is more subjective than our vision" bull come from? And why is hifi still struggling with moving towards higher standards as an industry?

If people want deviations from authentic reproduction, we've had that for years. It's called EQ.
 

bobbooo

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I don't get why hifi specifically is this way. In computer graphics, we had a period of YEARS, where the GPU manufacturers tried to sneak "optimizations", ie. performance-improving image-degradation past reviewers and consumers alike, and only stopped when they were called on it. There was no talk or someone "liking" the objectively degraded or distorted image.
Same goes today with TVs and monitors. There's no talk in reviews or industry documents about "pleasing" deviations from the intended image. Every screen is expected to be able to hit the same standards. Sure, most let you tweak or add image enhancements or interpolation and such, but the screens aren't judged like they come out the box because THAT'S NOT RIGHT.
Where did this "our hearing is more subjective than our vision" bull come from? And why is hifi still struggling with moving towards higher standards as an industry?

If people want deviations from authentic reproduction, we've had that for years. It's called EQ.

It comes from the fact that unlike monitors (screens) used for film mastering, studio monitors (speakers) are not standardized or calibrated to reproduce content in the same way across different studios, or between the production and reproduction ends as monitor screens / TVs are. It's madness, and leads to the circle of confusion as Floyd Toole calls it. The only way to break the circle is to force manufacturers toward a standard (either at the production or reproduction end, one should follow the other). Objective measurements such as ASR's that reward speakers with flat on-axis frequency response for example by imparting on them objective praise (or shame) as quantified by the preference ratings, publicity and so more (or fewer) sales will only help with this standardization. I really hope we eventually get there.
 
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ezra_s

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I thought it was all about "high fidelity" to the source.

But the article seems to refer it is about flavours of sound coloration?
 

PierreV

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Where did this "our hearing is more subjective than our vision" bull come from?

From the observation that it triggers emotions more easily maybe?

One example among many

I do agree it works both ways, visual perception enhancing the audio experience (which is at the core of audio objectivist vs subjectivist debate).

But music definitely has the edge in triggering subjective emotions imho. It shouldn't be a surprise the debates around its composition, performance and reproduction are always so subjective.
 

GelbeMusik

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Well, I don't think there's something particularly offensive or silly in that article.

I understand Your attempt to not exaggerate the conflict. But times, as sad as it is, people behave as an offense to honesty or human intelligence in general. This is the case here. I raised a lot of critiscism against the Olive / Harman rating myself. A spinorama is just a comprehensive, yet not complete sketch of the objective performance.

But the author of the article obviously doesn't understand the least, except that You have to buy and buy and buy, which makes his business, namely to make You do so. In order to protect his self-acclaimed status as an audio-guru he uses worst 'black rhetoric' The article is plain lie.

I depends on You if You accept this as an adequate social behavior.
 

bobbooo

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From the observation that it triggers emotions more easily maybe?

One example among many

I do agree it works both ways, visual perception enhancing the audio experience (which is at the core of audio objectivist vs subjectivist debate).

But music definitely has the edge in triggering subjective emotions imho. It shouldn't be a surprise the debates around its composition, performance and reproduction are always so subjective.

The problem is the conflation of music and audio reproduction. Yes, music can be incredibly emotional, but audio reproduction is not - it's just science and engineering, which should aim to preserve the original emotion and intent of the artist with 100% audible transparency.
 

BillG

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When someone states that measurements don't matter, I immediately think one of the following:

1.) They're very much driven by emotion, and no amount of logic, reasoning, and data will sway them.

2.) They're scientifically illiterate/misinformed. Proper guidance may help them, but only if they're willing to learn.
 

bobbooo

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When someone states that measurements don't matter, I immediately think one of the following:

1.) They're very much driven by emotion, and no amount of logic, reasoning, and data will sway them.

2.) They're scientifically illiterate/misinformed. Proper guidance may help them, but only if they're willing to learn.

Although people that fit into category 2 are easier to sway, I still have some hope that progress can be made in category 1. What you need to do is instead of attacking their individual beliefs which will usually result in an overly defensive reaction, go meta and subtly get them to question their general belief-forming processes. Often you'll find they have never even thought about this at all, which can start a cascade of doubt that will bring all their false beliefs crashing down. No-one wants to hold false beliefs, and if you can show them that it's the method of forming them that matters and will reliably lead them to truth, they may start to change their ways. There's at least a drop of rationality in most people.
 

Absolute

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I don't get why hifi specifically is this way. In computer graphics, we had a period of YEARS, where the GPU manufacturers tried to sneak "optimizations", ie. performance-improving image-degradation past reviewers and consumers alike, and only stopped when they were called on it. There was no talk or someone "liking" the objectively degraded or distorted image.
Same goes today with TVs and monitors. There's no talk in reviews or industry documents about "pleasing" deviations from the intended image. Every screen is expected to be able to hit the same standards. Sure, most let you tweak or add image enhancements or interpolation and such, but the screens aren't judged like they come out the box because THAT'S NOT RIGHT.
Where did this "our hearing is more subjective than our vision" bull come from? And why is hifi still struggling with moving towards higher standards as an industry?

If people want deviations from authentic reproduction, we've had that for years. It's called EQ.
I suspect it comes from the fact that speakers (audio in general?) is so simple to produce that any moron with space on the kitchen bench can assemble and produce finished products that works without prior knowledge. The audio industry is riddled with small producers without tools, resources or technical understanding - and the reviewers praise this stuff.

If technical brilliance is to be expected, we need big companies with resources and rigid enough standards that some Absolute-moron cannot possibly achieve it from his kitchen table. Genelec, Neumann, Harman/Samsung, Monitor Audio, Focal, Canton, Kef etc are examples of companies that can produce products of high enough standards at acceptable prices if they choose to.
In my mind it would be better for us audiophiles if we forced them to.

Hopefully that would rid the world of one-man shit-shows with creative solutions to problems they don't understand. We avoid cars that doesn't score 5 stars at EuroNCAP crash testing, I would assume we would do the same if standards were applied to audio as well - at least in the more expensive part of the spectrum.

At the same time, speakers are a bunch of opposing compromises that can never be perfect because of it. Let's say you can have broad dispersion or perfect directivity, what would you choose? Or perfect spinorama, but no bass? Or the same but with tons of distortion?
In TV's you know that you can measure whatever goes in comes out, but when it comes to speakers that will never happen. You would need standards for different criteria, perhaps like the labels on a tire?
You know, noise, wet grip, dry grip, rolling resistance etc.

I understand Your attempt to not exaggerate the conflict. But times, as sad as it is, people behave as an offense to honesty or human intelligence in general. This is the case here. I raised a lot of critiscism against the Olive / Harman rating myself. A spinorama is just a comprehensive, yet not complete sketch of the objective performance.

But the author of the article obviously doesn't understand the least, except that You have to buy and buy and buy, which makes his business, namely to make You do so. In order to protect his self-acclaimed status as an audio-guru he uses worst 'black rhetoric' The article is plain lie.

I depends on You if You accept this as an adequate social behavior.
In my eyes you are projecting feelings and viewpoints to the author that has no support in what was written. The author didn't show a misunderstanding of the research in the article, he pointed out quite specifically that the research intended to find averages and avoided stand-outs like hearing-impaired people to make the process simpler.
That's true, of course.

While I don't agree with the author philosophically, I can understand his position and why he assumes it. There doesn't need to be a lack of understanding or contempt involved to disagree.
 

XaVierDK

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I suspect it comes from the fact that speakers (audio in general?) is so simple to produce that any moron with space on the kitchen bench can assemble and produce finished products that works without prior knowledge. The audio industry is riddled with small producers without tools, resources or technical understanding - and the reviewers praise this stuff.

If technical brilliance is to be expected, we need big companies with resources and rigid enough standards that some Absolute-moron cannot possibly achieve it from his kitchen table. Genelec, Neumann, Harman/Samsung, Monitor Audio, Focal, Canton, Kef etc are examples of companies that can produce products of high enough standards at acceptable prices if they choose to.
In my mind it would be better for us audiophiles if we forced them to.

Hopefully that would rid the world of one-man shit-shows with creative solutions to problems they don't understand. We avoid cars that doesn't score 5 stars at EuroNCAP crash testing, I would assume we would do the same if standards were applied to audio as well - at least in the more expensive part of the spectrum.

At the same time, speakers are a bunch of opposing compromises that can never be perfect because of it. Let's say you can have broad dispersion or perfect directivity, what would you choose? Or perfect spinorama, but no bass? Or the same but with tons of distortion?


There's plenty of room for specialisation or differentiation in speakers, as you say not all speakers seek to solve the same problem or aim for the same design goals. But you should still, in speakers and in electronics, aim to fulfill the objective precise reproduction of what was recorded, IMO.
 

Absolute

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There's plenty of room for specialisation or differentiation in speakers, as you say not all speakers seek to solve the same problem or aim for the same design goals. But you should still, in speakers and in electronics, aim to fulfill the objective precise reproduction of what was recorded, IMO.
It's good engineering to seek the absolute best result you can within given constraints, so I absolutely agree.

I cannot overstate how much I hate/despise/loathe poor engineering. It drives me crazy and I wish there were more engineers in the world with practical experience :p
 

Jimbob54

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It looks like a stupid prophecy of sorts and a ridiculous interpretation of matters.
Bigger boom than you'd get from a petard, for sure.
 

ttimer

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I don't get why hifi specifically is this way. In computer graphics, we had a period of YEARS, where the GPU manufacturers tried to sneak "optimizations", ie. performance-improving image-degradation past reviewers and consumers alike, and only stopped when they were called on it. There was no talk or someone "liking" the objectively degraded or distorted image.
Same goes today with TVs and monitors. There's no talk in reviews or industry documents about "pleasing" deviations from the intended image. Every screen is expected to be able to hit the same standards. Sure, most let you tweak or add image enhancements or interpolation and such, but the screens aren't judged like they come out the box because THAT'S NOT RIGHT.
Where did this "our hearing is more subjective than our vision" bull come from? And why is hifi still struggling with moving towards higher standards as an industry?
Part of the problem with audio is that in most genres the "intended sound" could not realistically be reproduced with speakers or headphones. Much less easily compared. You simply canot A/B test a stereo system against a concert hall.

I cannot overstate how much I hate/despise/loathe poor engineering. It drives me crazy and I wish there were more engineers in the world with practical experience :p

My opinion may be biased by exposure to the German audio market and its idiosyncracies, but capable engineers are only part of the solution. Good engineers will be able to build a speaker to any target within given constraints. But that doesn't mean much unless you have people (usually not engineers) who know what a good target is. Thats why we need people like Toole, Olive, Linkwitz, etc.
 

bobbooo

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Part of the problem with audio is that in most genres the "intended sound" could not realistically be reproduced with speakers or headphones. Much less easily compared. You simply canot A/B test a stereo system against a concert hall.

The intended sound is what was heard during the final master of the track in the studio, not the live performance that was recorded, just as the final cut of a movie scene viewed on a mastering monitor is the intended visual, not what you would see if you were on the set when it was filmed.
 

mhardy6647

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Imagine buying a car and it decelerates slightly when u press the pedal to the metal, because it enhances the driving experience.
Imagine buying a car with a manual transmission in the modern era. The manual is demonstrably inferior in performance (if not in longevity) to modern "high-tech" oligo-speed, oligo-clutch automatics.
But the challenge of cooridinating mind, hand, and foot to shift gears is demonstrably (if not quantifiably) more fun.

:cool:

It has been demonstrated that no-one (including well-known chefs) can taste the difference in a double-blind test.
Just out of -- academic -- curiosity: Y'all got a reference for that? Ideally in the peer-reviewed literature?
 

XaVierDK

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Part of the problem with audio is that in most genres the "intended sound" could not realistically be reproduced with speakers or headphones. Much less easily compared. You simply canot A/B test a stereo system against a concert hall.
That's not apt. Your speakers shouldn't seek to render everything as a concert hall. They should be made to as accurately as possible recreate the recorded information. If you want the ambience of a concert hall, that's in the recording. And if you want to be able to faithfully reproduce a recording, you need neutral response. If it's in regards to sound pressure level or bass capability, that's a matter of speaker design as well.

A TV can't be A/B tested against a holodeck, but it can be made to faithfully represent a 2D image of a hologram rendered in a movie.
 

fredoamigo

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It has been demonstrated that no-one (including well-known chefs) can taste the difference in a double-blind test.
it was McDonald's and KFC who demonstrated ??;)
 

MediumRare

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View attachment 73538

Moreover, as some of your know, listener preferences for the amount of bass and treble in reproduced music varies by age, gender, years of listening experience, country of origin, AND musical content!
If this is aSr we need to work on our Science, and your post is 100% on target.
For example, if I am reading this right, each dot is one of the 70 speakers tested. One of those with a 3.5 predicted score is preferred or equal to many speakers with higher scores, even up to 5.6. There is something very important causing quite a wide variance yet it’s not explained. Good science is to look into that error and explain it. @amirm has pointed this out several times (see M16 and Kef R3 reviews to name just 2 out of many). To me this is the point of ASR. Let’s not rehash partial learning from 30 years ago. Let’s break new ground.
 
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