"Warm" amp/dac for the HE400se

[FurstMan]

Following the acquisition of a HiFiMan HE400se, I am looking for a headphone amplifier/dac which will be dedicated to it.

My headphones are currently running on my Cambridge CXA60 amp equipped with a Wolfson WM8740 converter, all connected to my PC via a PHIREE U2 USB/SPDIF interface (thanks to amrim's review). The whole thing works wonderfully and the sound experience is amazing, that's really what I like.

However, the CXA60 isn't meant to sit on my desk, and I need to find a dedicated headphone amp for my HE400se. So I bought the Topping DX1 based on amrim's recommendations (again).

The DX1 is great, very neutral but the sound lacks warmth. Everything is detailed but in a cold, almost metallic way. I don't like marriage with my HE400se.

So I wonder if this slight warm tint that I like on the CXA60 does not come from the WM8740 converter known precisely for that. What do you think ?

If so, do you think there are headphone amplifiers equipped with this same converter or another with equivalent sound reproduction?
I am thinking for example of the Cambridge Dac Magic Plus, which can still be found used only.

Could you help me ? Thank you so much !

 

[krabapple]

? Don't use a DAC or an amp to EQ sound. Use EQ.

 

[Soria Moria]

Put the Topping in the oven for a bit? 10 minutes at 150 degrees should warm it up enough.

 

[fpitas]

Buy the Topping and a can of Sterno?

Seriously: EQ

 

[sejarzo]

Is it just me or are very few DAC manufacturers using Wolfson chips these days?

 

[DVDdoug]

To some people "warm' means mid-bass boost. To other people it means slight-pleasing distortion. You won't get either of those from a DAC. Ever headphone will have different frequency response so maybe you want a different headphone. Or maybe just some EQ.

 

[okok]

you mean wrong amp/dac

 

[Chromatischism]

Agree with EQ to roll down the highs. Or just a preamp with a bass & treble knob.

 

[FurstMan]

Thank you for your answers.

In view of your answers, I imagine that the term "warm" is not the most appropriate and I apologize, however I think you have understood the idea perfectly. I am French and the transcription is not always easy for me. I don't see what other term I could use, so feel free to guide me.

Don't use a DAC or an amp to EQ sound. Use EQ.

Buy the Topping and a can of Sterno?

Seriously: EQ

Agree with EQ to roll down the highs. Or just a preamp with a bass & treble knob.

Indeed, I forgot to specify it but I used the PEQ of Oratory1990 which came to perfect my listening experience on the CXA60. However, this does not make up for the lack of heat observed on the DX1. I must also admit to being surprised to hear such a difference.

Put the Topping in the oven for a bit? 10 minutes at 150 degrees should warm it up enough.

Thank you very much for your help, it also solved all my problems in life.

Is it just me or are very few DAC manufacturers using Wolfson chips these days?

Indeed, it is no longer used too much today but was very popular ten years ago.

To some people "warm' means mid-bass boost. To other people it means slight-pleasing distortion. You won't get either of those from a DAC. Ever headphone will have different frequency response so maybe you want a different headphone.

For me, the "warm" aspect applies to the whole soundstage: from bass to treble. I couldn't explain it but it's not just about bass.
On the other hand, I keep reading everywhere (especially on this site) that the dacs all have a more or less neutral and different sound, which I think I also noticed here. So reading you that changing the dac won't change anything confuses me. Do you have more explanations?
Finally, why change headphones if I found the combination that works? My problem is not there and I have the impression that we are moving away.

you mean wrong amp/dac

Alright, so what?

 

[Veri]

For me, the "warm" aspect applies to the whole soundstage: from bass to treble. I couldn't explain it but it's not just about bass.
On the other hand, I keep reading everywhere (especially on this site) that the dacs all have a more or less neutral and different sound, which I think I also noticed here. So reading you that changing the dac won't change anything confuses me. Do you have more explanations?
Finally, why change headphones if I found the combination that works?

Honestly if you found the combination that works I would stick with it, we don't know what exactly it is you are hearing that is not present in the Topping DX1. Maybe that one is just underpowered, especially if you are using EQ too (you mention oratory1990), plus a planar needing a lot of current, I would not buy or use a DX1 for such use either honestly. It's meant for fairly low power usage.

 

[Mnyb]

DAC's per definition if they work properly (engineered by competent people) do not have a "sound" , you are hearing the source material as is for better or worse . the DAC is transparent to the source it's coloration is both lower than whatever happened in the studio ( the source material ) and it's distortion components are also lower than what humanly possible to hear so it's transparent to human hearing even if problems can be measured in some cases.

So competent DAC's sound the same > as the source material.
Incompetent DAC's can have various curios colorations , but then you need to be prepared have many of them as there is not really any one size fits all sounds good on everything solution i know off ?

The solutions possibly is to get headphones with the desired sound characteristics or close to.

But headphones really need EQ to sound proper , you better investigate in all the EQ curves published for your headphones to compensate for their deviations.
For example i use the Sennheiser HD650 both Amir ( here at ASR ) and other sources have published EQ suggestion for this headphone and it truly makes an amazing difference.

But you may very well be barking up the wrong tree The Cambride CXA60 is a normal integrated amplifier and I cant find the spec for it's output impedance for the headphone output this can alter the frequency response combined with the headphones ? you headphones are very low impedance ? you might try with a typical pair of 600ohm headphones if you have any and compare the CXA60 with the Topping ?
If you want to replicate the deviations of the Cambridge combined with HE400 (if there is any ) you again need EQ .

 

[Mnyb]

Poster Veri may be rigth the Topping may also be under powered my 0.02$ i speculate that its more amp related than DAC related , but that's all we can do in armchair engineering this week If you happy with the Cambridge use it as is.

 

[Veri]

But you may very well be barking up the wrong tree The Cambride CXA60 is a normal integrated amplifier and I cant find the spec for it's output impedance for the headphone output this can alter the frequency response combined with the headphones ?

Yeah it probably does have an inflated output impedance which is actually not ideal for most headphones. But planar headphones tend to not respond to higher output impedance due to a flat impedance curve so that might not matter here.

 

[Mnyb]

Yeah it probably does have an inflated output impedance which is actually not ideal for most headphones. But planar headphones tend to not respond to higher output impedance due to a flat impedance curve so that might not matter here.

Nice to know that's a useful property of them.

Is damping factor a thing with headphone amps or are headphones so well mechanically damped that it hardly matters ?

 

[Veri]

Nice to know that's a useful property of them.

Is damping factor a thing with headphone amps or are headphones so well mechanically damped that it hardly matters ?

For traditional dynamic headphones it's definitely a thing!

Headphone & Amp Impedance

INTRO: The output Impedance of headphone sources is one of the most common reasons the same headphones can sound different depending on wha...

nwavguy.blogspot.com

 

[charleski]

Is it just me or are very few DAC manufacturers using Wolfson chips these days?

Wolfson was bought by Cirrus Logic in 2014. They aren't using Wolfson chips because none have been made under that brand for 9 years.

 

[sejarzo]

Wolfson was bought by Cirrus Logic in 2014. They aren't using Wolfson chips because none have been made under that brand for 9 years.

Welp, that explains it.

 

[FurstMan]

Thank you for all your answers.

Honestly if you found the combination that works I would stick with it, we don't know what exactly it is you are hearing that is not present in the Topping DX1. Maybe that one is just underpowered, especially if you are using EQ too (you mention oratory1990), plus a planar needing a lot of current, I would not buy or use a DX1 for such use either honestly. It's meant for fairly low power usage.

Indeed I would like to stick with my CXA60 but I did not buy it to use it for this purpose and I do not see myself buying a second CXA60 for that. Regarding the power supply, how to determine if it is powerful enough? With planar technology, I have to admit I got a bit lost.

Poster Veri may be rigth the Topping may also be under powered my 0.02$ i speculate that its more amp related than DAC related , but that's all we can do in armchair engineering this week If you happy with the Cambridge use it as is.

You are right, I think I made a mistake by concentrating only on the dac when it is most certainly the headphone amplifier that is in question.

This is the basic problem with a predisposition to inaccurate sound. Many people desire an inaccurate sound; it's "romantic" or "lush" or "warm". That's understandable; we all like what we like, and there is no criticizing personal taste.
However ...... as @Mnyb stated, the search for the particular inaccuracy that you find appealing can be maddening. It's like being mired in a swamp and searching for one piece of solid ground; you might possibly search forever. Not only is it maddening, but it can be maddeningly expensive, too.

When you go to a club to listen to a performer, do you stop the performance and ask them to make their sound "warmer" or do you accept the performance just the way it is?

Jim

p.s. - A woman with makeup is more attractive, but you don't really love the makeup .... you love the woman behind it. Audio playback is the same.

I am certainly not the most advanced on the subject but I very sincerely doubt the formula: warm sound = imprecise/poor quality sound. One does not absolutely preclude the other.
Regarding your comparison with the sound reproduction of a club, although I understand the idea I doubt that this one is viable. I think it's safe to say that no one goes to a club to enjoy sound like an audiophile would with their hi-fi system, these are completely different contexts.

 

[Mnyb]

For traditional dynamic headphones it's definitely a thing!

Headphone & Amp Impedance

INTRO: The output Impedance of headphone sources is one of the most common reasons the same headphones can sound different depending on wha...

nwavguy.blogspot.com

This was useful , iv'e probably had a senior moment iv'e read this one before thankyou for the reminder

 

[FurstMan]

I return to draw a conclusion:

A friend lent me his LOXJIE D30. It wasn't powerful enough to play my music at high volume, but it was enough to drive my HE400se well at normal listening volume.
This allowed me to confirm your statements and to make me understand that the DX1 was not at all sufficient and that the lack of "heat" observed was due to this.

After many hours of ASV research, I ordered a Topping DX3 Pro+.
This one, with the gain at +19db and the PEQ of oratory1990 gives me complete satisfaction.

Thank you again for your help, let's go for long hours of listening and pleasure.