Want to upgrade Beyerdynamic DT990 pro - I don't like them anymore

[Curupira]

Thanks!
I see often times the Fiio K11 R2R recommended (at reddit, not here) and soon there will be a K13 R2R. Do you know something about these?

It's Fiio's attempt in entering the niche that is audiophile nostalgia technology (R2R). It's akin to people using old CRT TVs because they had prettier colors, though distorted. The difference is that in audio the differences are so minute that most people won't tell the difference between the normal k11 and the k11 r2r, although the former is substantially cleaner in measurements and fidelity. In another analogy, it's like trying to see the difference between a 300 and 500hz monitor: you'll need a trained eye and skills (hearing) to tell them apart.

If you find the regular k11 cheaper than the k7 and prefer the OLED screen to the rgb knob, go ahead. In sound they'll be identical, but the k7 is more powerful (1400mw vs 2000mw at 32 ohm, bal).

 

[someguyintheinternet]

It's Fiio's attempt in entering the niche that is audiophile nostalgia technology (R2R). It's akin to people using old CRT TVs because they had prettier colors, though distorted. The difference is that in audio the differences are so minute that most people won't tell the difference between the normal k11 and the k11 r2r, although the former is substantially cleaner in measurements and fidelity. In another analogy, it's like trying to see the difference between a 300 and 500hz monitor: you'll need a trained eye and skills (hearing) to tell them apart.

If you find the regular k11 cheaper than the k7 and prefer the OLED screen to the rgb knob, go ahead. In sound they'll be identical, but the k7 is more powerful (1400mw vs 2000mw at 32 ohm, bal).

Hmmmmm...
it's so hard to decide.

I like the power of the Topping DX5 ii. But maybe I should just go with fiio k11 because I like the sleek design (despite the big branding on the top) and at least (I think) it will have enough juice to power all these headphones with enough headroom. Is that correct? Furthermore its only 120€ vs 300€ for the Topping DX5 II and 200€ K7.
Does the sound doesn't get colorized or something from this amp/dac, it will just be clear?

What's your opinion?

 

[Curupira]

The k11 will drive any headphone you picked on your list.

In regards to coloration, the regular k11 should be audibly transparent, while the R2R version should have more distortion, akin to something released in the 80s and 90s.

 

[someguyintheinternet]

The k11 will drive any headphone you picked on your list.

In regards to coloration, the regular k11 should be audibly transparent, while the R2R version should have more distortion, akin to something released in the 80s and 90s.

Ok, then I will give the FiiO K11 a go!

 

[someguyintheinternet]

The Fiio K11 arrived today. Headphones will be delivered tomorrow. It really looks sleek - great design!

I totally don't know what happened, but I've a COMPLETLY different listening experience with my DT990 Pro 250 OHM.
1. They seem hard to drive - enjoying music at High Gain at 80. Can go to 99 without problems, so I can't drive them "all out". Maybe with the balanced output I can get more juice out of them?
2. Most important: They are sounding different! I blind tested with my old AMP/DAC. Holy cow, from another world. Like everything is more clear and percebtible. It's the first time I felt the bass with them, the soundwave, the earpads where "vibrating" (f.e. first 5 seconds from WIND ROSE - Diggy Diggy Hole). Hard to describe, it's like having "fun" listening with them.
3. Tried the AKG K702 with it. Also EQ from oratory. I thought both should sound the same now, as they are equalized to Harman Target. But they don't. Why is this? Still, AKG K702 more clear, this time vocals are not more forward, they just don't bring the same warmth into it. More neutral and clear and everything is distinguisable. I still like this more, I think.

DAC/AMP I had before: Speaka Professional USB Audio DAC DSD 384khz 32bit

But I really thought both headphones should sound the same, as they are both equalized to Harman Target. They don't. Complete difference.

I saw that the Fiio has some "Filters". What exactly do they do and what should I use?

Don't know what all these means. 1 and 6 sounded the best to me. But it was hard to tell a difference between all of them especially 2-5. Maybe I'm just not good at hearing these nuances.

Finally: Does it makes a difference if I drive them in Low/Medium/High Gain despite the power?

 

[Curupira]

3. Tried the AKG K702 with it. Also EQ from oratory. I thought both should sound the same now, as they are equalized to Harman Target. But they don't

They never will. They will only be "identical" to the rig that their were measured on, given that Oratory actually remeasures post EQ. If you want to know more, the headphone show did a good video convering this. Summary below.

This video explains that attempting to make inexpensive headphones sound like high-end models using equalization (EQ) is fraught with challenges. The primary difficulty isn't just the physical limitations or distortion of the cheaper drivers, but the significant variability in how headphones perform on different individuals. Factors such as the precise positioning on the head, the compression of the ear pads, the clamping force of the headband, and even the angle at which they sit create unique acoustic environments for each user. Consequently, a standard EQ setting that is based on a measurement from a test rig will not translate accurately to every person's listening experience, making a perfect replication of a high-end sound nearly impossible to achieve universally.

I saw that the Fiio has some "Filters". What exactly do they do and what should I use?

This is the cut-off digital filter. DACs will cut off frequencies near 22kHz so you don't get artifacts and high frequency noise, as we don't hear well up there and 99% of musical content has nothing useful after 20khz in recordings.

The most "correct" filter will be the minimum phase fast roll off, shown above in red. The others will just change the inclination of the slope.

Non oversampling means the delta sigma DAC in your k11 won't oversample the signal to a higher sample, which is done in other to correct artifacts and added noise from the digital to analog process. Turning the oversampling off will, in practice, produce a slight decrease in the higher frequencies and a increase in distortion.

Finally: Does it makes a difference if I drive them in Low/Medium/High Gain despite the power?

It shouldn't. Just select the one that gives you the best volume and granularity when turning the knob.

Maybe with the balanced output I can get more juice out of them?

You will, but careful with two things: first and foremost, your hearing. Once damaged, you can't get it back... Second, you'll have to mod your headphones in other to use balanced, as they're wired single ended from the factory. DO NOT use an adapter or a balanced cable without rewiring the headphones first, as you'll short the bal out of the amplifier and literally damage it.

About your experience. Enjoy it

I personally don't believe sources should sound all that different in ideal scenarios, but if you're having fun, who am I to argue? Just don't go overboard with the enthusiasm. I've seen people enjoying their new purchases so much they returned it and bought gear 10x the price because the fell down the "how much better can this get?" rabbit hole.

 

[someguyintheinternet]

They never will. They will only be "identical" to the rig that their were measured on, given that Oratory actually remeasures post EQ. If you want to know more, the headphone show did a good video convering this. Summary below.

Good video. Thanks for this. I do understand it, technically. But still I'm wondering: It was measured with measured equipment, the frequency/waves hit the measuring point / measuring rig in the same way. At least they should sound a little bit identical, don't they? But, at least for me, it's completly different. And I still perceive them as what they are sometimes described online, one is more neutral and clear and the other one mor V-Shapes, bassy and warm. At least I thought that the Harmann Target EQ would bring them a bit nearer together at least i would assume that their "soundcharacter" changed, even if there are other headphoneplacements etc. in comparison to the measurement rig. while writing: maybe I didn't understand it the way I introduced it at the beginning

The most "correct" filter will be the minimum phase fast roll off, shown above in red. The others will just change the inclination of the slope.

Non oversampling means the delta sigma DAC in your k11 won't oversample the signal to a higher sample, which is done in other to correct artifacts and added noise from the digital to analog process. Turning the oversampling off will, in practice, produce a slight decrease in the higher frequencies and a increase in distortion.

Great! So I'll use the first one. As I said, I didnt hear that big differences. Maybe because I'm using youtube, or perhaps because I'm just bad in analysing and hearing it like you/others.
What makes me wondering: How did you know that for example "minimum phase fast roll off" is the red line? Experience?

It shouldn't. Just select the one that gives you the best volume and granularity when turning the knob.

Ok. Thought there would things like distortion or sideeffects like this appear when using different gain levels. Reddit knowledge in this topic is bad, lol.

You will, but careful with two things: first and foremost, your hearing. Once damaged, you can't get it back... Second, you'll have to mod your headphones in other to use balanced, as they're wired single ended from the factory. DO NOT use an adapter or a balanced cable without rewiring the headphones first, as you'll short the bal out of the amplifier and literally damage it.

Yeah, sure! Wasn't talking about the Beyer rather than about the Headphones I ordered as some have the balanced option.
Furthermore I want to buy a cable from https://hartaudiocables.com/ for the looks, and then I would just pick balanced, because why not?


Another idea which came to my mind:
Could I use a Quedelix 5K and just put one of the headphones into this BT amp/dac, clip it f.e. on my shirt and eventually use the headphones wireless by just connecting to my Mainboard/Onboard Bluetooth 5.1? Or am I missing something here? ^^ If yes, follow-up question: Would this be a high lag, or something negligble? (Like 10 to 20ms max).
This would be a great upgrade for some casual usage!!





BTW: Speaking of IEM, do you think the Truthear Gate or the 7hz x crinacle zero 2 would be more my cup of tea? Saw the review and was amazed how good IEM can measure. Didn't know that and would try to give them at least a shot (I dont know if I like to feel it the whole day in my ears, but yeah, at this pricepoint I can give it a try...)

 

[Curupira]

At least I thought that the Harmann Target EQ would bring them a bit nearer together at least i would assume that their "soundcharacter" changed, even if there are other headphoneplacements etc. in comparison to the measurement rig. while writing: maybe I didn't understand it the way I introduced it at the beginning

It should, that's why the target exists. What I meant to say is that you can't have the exact same response at eardrum level from EQ with different headphones. The measurement rigs try to emulate our ears and head, but they're still not perfect. Oratory measures and EQs based on the GRAAS 43AG coupler and a default pinna that I forget the name. The measurement rig shown in the video is the BK 5128 head and torso, which is more accurate but is still novelty inside the industry: Harman Target and research were done on the GRAAS coupler.

How did you know that for example "minimum phase fast roll off" is the red line? Experience?

Educated guess . The default filter tends to be the one that will implement the nyquist-theorem in reverse for the default sampled rate (44.1khz, so 22khz). Manufacturers like topping and FiiO tend to use the same dac chips on their gear, and those dac cheaps come with defaulted filters that are often just renamed by the selling company. The first default option will often be the most correct, unaltered signal. That's why I said minimum phase.

Ok. Thought there would things like distortion or sideeffects like this appear when using different gain levels. Reddit knowledge in this topic is bad, lol.

It will. The higher the gain, the higher the noise and distortion. Gain is literally multiplying the input signal by a exponential factor (measured in dB). Thing is, these amplifiers are so audibly transparent that you'll hear distortion/noise from the headphone first (and this is volume/spl concern, not gain), unless you're using really sensitive iems, which is not the case.

Could I use a Quedelix 5K and just put one of the headphones into this BT amp/dac, clip it f.e. on my shirt and eventually use the headphones wireless by just connecting to my Mainboard/Onboard Bluetooth 5.1? Or am I missing something here? ^^ If yes, follow-up question: Would this be a high lag, or something negligble? (Like 10 to 20ms max).
This would be a great upgrade for some casual usage!!

Yes. You can use this driver and profit from LDAC, APTX HD and APTX Low latency on Windows with Bluetooth decides like the qudelix and Fiio's BTRs (AFAIK windows defaults to sbc or aac). The latency for LDAC and APTX LL is low but may not be low enough for your comp needs:

aptX Low Latency provides low-latency (~50ms) audio (compared to 150~200ms latency with other CODECs), which is good for gaming and other time-sensitive applications

BTW: Speaking of IEM, do you think the Truthear Gate or the 7hz x crinacle zero 2 would be more my cup of tea?

I think that, given your taste for the K702s and DT990s forwardness, you'll like the Gate best, as it has more high mids and highs than the zero, which has more bass and less pinna (will sound "warmer" overall). In gaming, people tend to prefer Harman tuned iems, and that here will be the Gate, although both are close.

 

[someguyintheinternet]

Soooo, I did a lot of listening (and gaming ) today. To be honest: I like the most the Sennheiser HD490 PRO. They are so damn great at imaging / soundstage in gaming. Thats incredible. I can easily tell where the enemy is in different games. Also the separation is superb. The HD560 is really near this, but not that good in imaging/location especially vertically.

I like the Arya for music! Feels great too. But for gaming it's like that everything feels soooo far away. That's strange, at least its hard to locate things in terms of the distance to me.

I tried all of these with the oratory EQ.

But I'm really really happy with my choice.
Still, it's like you said, now I'm curious what could get better with other more expensive headphones Strange feeling. Like missing out something.

Speaking of 490PRO, which I will keep - based on the oratory EQ I would still like to get more punch/bass out of them, more present vocals and more highs (highs especially for footsteps etc).

Could you maybe help me achieve this? Do I just need to adjust some of the already present Frequencies or add new one? And to what values should I change the Gain and Q?

If that helps, the PDF (Link) says:

Despite there is no band 9


ChatGPT says:

Frequency	Gain (dB)	Q	Filter Type	What it does
31 Hz	+3.0 dB	1.0	Peaking	Sub-bass, rumble, low-end impact
100 Hz	+2.5 dB	1.0	Peaking	Mid-bass warmth, punch
650 Hz	+1.8 dB	1.0	Peaking	Adds vocal body, chest-tone
2800 Hz	+2.2 dB	2.5	Peaking	Brings vocals forward, presence boost
8000 Hz	+2.0 dB	2.0	Peaking	Sparkle, cymbals, air, clarity
11500 Hz	+1.5 dB	1.2	Peaking	Subtle "air" and detail boost

As I have absolutely no clue what I'm doing here, I would highly appreciate your help to fine tune these now!

 

[Curupira]

But I'm really really happy with my choice.
Still, it's like you said, now I'm curious what could get better with other more expensive headphones Strange feeling. Like missing out something.

Happy you're enjoying them! There is not a great correlation with price and perfomance in higher end, unfortunately. A lot of high end manufacturers are just boutique and have small batches of production, so the price goes up. Others use more premium materials on lower MOQs. And a few spend a lot on R&D and charge extra, like the Sennheiser HD800S.

Moreover, the gains you'll have will be greatly affected by diminish returns: the HD 490 are already great, getting a 800, 1200 or 2400 dollar headphone won't yield you 2x, 3x or 4x the greatness, but marginal gains with a few caveats, as higher end headphones tend to be more niche tuned than neutral.

Speaking of 490PRO, which I will keep - based on the oratory EQ I would still like to get more punch/bass out of them, more present vocals and more highs (highs especially for footsteps etc).

Could you maybe help me achieve this? Do I just need to adjust some of the already present Frequencies or add new one? And to what values should I change the Gain and Q?

If that helps, the PDF (Link) says:

First of all, careful with the high shelf on band 5 (3000khz), Oratory usually use default Q values for it, but in this instance he did not. To properly add the 0.35 Q value, you will have to select High Shelf by Q factor on Peace. It's lower down the list than the standard high shelf you've used, which defaults to a Q of 0.7.

Second, disregard GPT final answer , it's better to learn EQ yourself or to use the guidelines from Oratory. Don't change their Q values, just the gain.

If you want more bass, increase the value of the 105Hz band to something like 8 or 9 and decrease the preamp (slider on top) to - 8 or - 9 dB so the signal doesn't clip.

For more vocal presence and details, add more gain to the 3000khz band. If the sound becomes too clinky and sparkly, compensate by turning down the 10khz band accordingly.

If you need more changes, I recommend playing around with new filters rather than further changing Oratory's. You can add more bars to Peace with the + button on the right side. For more midbass, a 180Hz band with default 1.4 Q will work, making things more thumpy. For more vocals, another 3000khz band with default Q will also work. For more treble, you can try increasing Oratory's 6000khz band.

-------

Finally, you can more or less predict the changes you make on the squig link below by switching to the EQ tab, which uses the same rig that Oratory used to measure the HD 490 and estimates the overall change. I've added the oratory profile already. If didn't apply, just import the file I've annexed here. You can export the end result you made to peace using the export button.

Squiglink - IEM frequency response database by Sai

Compare hundreds of frequency response graphs between IEMs and earphones from manufacturers like Moondrop, Sony, 64 Audio, Fiio, and more.

sai.squig.link

To learn more about EQ and squigs, I recommend the Playlist below from super reviews, the creator and host of the site and tool.

How to EQ headphones: THE SERIES

Share your videos with friends, family, and the world

youtube.com

Summary for mods: it's an youtube playlist covering the basics of EQing with software like Peace and the site tool squig link.

 

[zonk]

An IEM could be an option instead of more expensive over-ear headphones.
- 7Hz x Crinacle Zero 2 (was tested here by Amir)
- KZ PRX
- Moondrop Chu 2 (was tested here by Amir)
- Simgot EW300
- Tangzu Wan'er SG 2
- Truthear Gate (was tested here by Amir)
- Truthear Zero RED (was tested here by Amir)

Or a closed headphone like:
- Sennheiser HD620S

 

[someguyintheinternet]

Yes. You can use this driver and profit from LDAC, APTX HD and APTX Low latency on Windows with Bluetooth decides like the qudelix and Fiio's BTRs (AFAIK windows defaults to sbc or aac). The latency for LDAC and APTX LL is low but may not be low enough for your comp needs:

aptX Low Latency provides low-latency (~50ms) audio (compared to 150~200ms latency with other CODECs), which is good for gaming and other time-sensitive applications

Ok, yeah, that's way to much, even for casually playing. Half of a second is crazy.

An IEM could be an option instead of more expensive over-ear headphones.

I don't get warm with IEM. They just do not give me the soundstage and location I need. At least the ones that I tested from some of my teammates. Same for closed headphones. It is like everything is near me and in my head, that's so disturbing for gaming. You cant really tell where the enemy is, despite the horizontall axis.

Still I'm going to order the Truthear Gate as they are nearest to my prefered soundprofile I think

In regards to the Qudelix 5k: This isn't an option too. I'm playing competitive and this would raise the lag to a level which isn't bearable for me. Bit I've already the Fiio K11 ordered and in use

First of all, careful with the high shelf on band 5 (3000khz), Oratory usually use default Q values for it, but in this instance he did not. To properly add the 0.35 Q value, you will have to select High Shelf by Q factor on Peace. It's lower down the list than the standard high shelf you've used, which defaults to a Q of 0.7.

Second, disregard GPT final answer , it's better to learn EQ yourself or to use the guidelines from Oratory. Don't change their Q values, just the gain.

If you want more bass, increase the value of the 105Hz band to something like 8 or 9 and decrease the preamp (slider on top) to - 8 or - 9 dB so the signal doesn't clip.

For more vocal presence and details, add more gain to the 3000khz band. If the sound becomes too clinky and sparkly, compensate by turning down the 10khz band accordingly.

If you need more changes, I recommend playing around with new filters rather than further changing Oratory's. You can add more bars to Peace with the + button on the right side. For more midbass, a 180Hz band with default 1.4 Q will work, making things more thumpy. For more vocals, another 3000khz band with default Q will also work. For more treble, you can try increasing Oratory's 6000khz band.

-------

Finally, you can more or less predict the changes you make on the squig link below by switching to the EQ tab, which uses the same rig that Oratory used to measure the HD 490 and estimates the overall change. I've added the oratory profile already. If didn't apply, just import the file I've annexed here. You can export the end result you made to peace using the export button.

Man, thanks! These are some great ressources! I've watched the whole youtube playlist and some other guides too now. This whole EQ thing is really great, I do think I understand it a bit more now.
What's contradictory: They guy says you can tune your headphone into any another headphone with EQ. Basically the opposite says another guy from yt that this is physically not possible.

AutoEQ was ok'ish - maybe because I didn't know which target curve I should use. Tried Harman OE2018 and Tilted Diffuse Field. My personal ranking of this was: Tilted Diffuse Field (But with elevated bass) > oratory eq > harman oe2018.

BUT I've tried to do my own profile, I really like it so far! Outcome:

EQ Profile with oratory1990:

My custome EQ profile based on oratory1990's:

Added my custom profile as download, if someone is interested in it.


Unfortunately I needed to put the FiioK11 from Medium to High gain - don't know why, but wasn't getting loud enough otherwise. When I finally get some balanced cable I think I can switch back again to Medium or perhaps Low?!

Haven't tested only for some minutes in gam*ing so far, just with alot of music (Cause tuning while gaming is nearly impossible, you cannot "repeat" things etc.).
If you have any recommendations or would say that something of this EQ is really off and I should change it because I'm used to bad sounding/listening or something, please go ahead!! I'm used to my Klipsch Reference Premiere 8000F II, C404 II and RP600M II.

I didn't know if I need to correct the volatile lines above 7k, so much spikes. As oratory didn't do it, I will just follow with it. But my OCD says I need to bring it parallel to the Harman Target?

Summary: it's not as "warm" in comparison to the oratory profile, I've more vocal presence, sometimes a bit of body what the oratory profile have had is missing. It's not bad, because I get the vocal presence and forwardness with it. Furthermore in movie-trailers, you can really hear the clinky sounds of weapons, f.e. when the slide of a weapon gets pulled. Or if someones jumps through glass, it's like the glass is flying right in your head

Hans Zimmer - "Why So Serious?" => Loving the deep frequencies at 3:25 and overall all the separation of the instruments, just feels great.
Billie Eilish - "Bad Guy" => punchy kick withouth boomyness.
Ben Howard - "Keep Your Head Up" => was a bit dull with oratory, but had more body. now it isn't dull anymore, bit of body is missing, but vocal presence is freaking great.
Adele - "Hello" => Vocals forward! not far away not to narrow <3
Norah Jones - "Don’t Know Why" => Ok, to be honest, the only one where sometimes the voice get a bit shrill / high. It's like a little wakeup call in my head - I don't think I could listen to something like this the whole time or at least I need to put the soundlevel down. Otherwise this sounds just great. But even with oratory profile it is similiar, bot not as emphasized with mine.
Daft Punk -"Giorgio by Moroder" => Lot of details in the depth. Especially the intro gives a great separation and a sense of space. I feel some airiness here but not too much, which feels great. Also the "pew pew lasergunz" sounds at 8:00 feeling great


I'm open for any tips and improvements!!
@Curupira Based on this, what would be the correct/audiophile description of my sounprofile? Is this something like neutral or linear or lively or just BAD and WEIRD listening habits?



I think that this profile will also suit for competitive FPS, it has good separation, location of enemies, footsteps, weapons reloading, etc.
In my opinion, a finetuning of this for FPS could be like: Everything beginning with the higher mids could get more +db. Perhaps the 10.000 HZ filter could be lifted a little bit more for this or beginning directly with the 1300HZ Band. Nevertheless the bass should get reduced for better separation in games.

 

[Curupira]

But my OCD says I need to bring it parallel to the Harman Target

The Harman Target is heavily smoothed. That means that you could get a heavily spiked curve that would still look like Harman if correctly averaged. So no need to work around the peaks if they're not bothering you!

Also, these spikes are not to be trusted after 8khz because those frequencies do not play well with surfaces, so the peaks you get on your ear are not the same as those that show on measurements. That's one of the reasons B&K reconstructed a whole ear canal on their new coupler (5128), that you can toy with below:

Listener's 5128 Database

Satiate your sordid squiggle yearning!

listener.squig.link

(this is a link to a squig from listener, from the Headphone Show, that measures using the 5128).

Norah Jones - "Don’t Know Why" => Ok, to be honest, the only one where sometimes the voice get a bit shrill / high. It's like a little wakeup call in my head - I don't think I could listen to something like this the whole time or at least I need to put the soundlevel down.

Non neutral profiles will have that effect. They're less universal for a reason .

Based on this, what would be the correct/audiophile description of my sounprofile?

I'd say you like a energetic V shaped profile, like diffuse field with a bass shelf.

 

[Chrispy]

TLDR beyond first few posts....but why headphones at all?

 

[someguyintheinternet]

TLDR beyond first few posts....but why headphones at all?

TLDR:
Needed headphones for (90%) professional competitive gaming and (10%) music up to 600€ and additionally a AMP/DAC because I couldn't stand my Beyerdynamic DT990 PRO anymore with a 15years old 20€ noname electromaket amp/dac. Ordered some recommended ones. Kept the Sennheiser HD490 PRO with the Fiio K11. Second place was the Arya Stealth. Most important to me was the imaging / location of objects / separation / soundstage. Now I'm trying to EQ. I love very present vocals, I don't like a warm, muddy or dull sound. Also I do like some punch/bass.

Why headphones at all?
Tried some IEMs from may teammates, I didn't happen to like them. Every day I'm working(playing) around 10h+, it wasnt comfortable to have them in my ears at all - they never had a really god fit. The sound felt like it was in my head and not outside, so not really a great soundstage. The worst was the imaging / location of objects, especially vertically. I'm amazed how good this works with the 490 PRO.

Next Step:
Still I'm going to order the Truthear Gate, as they are rated very good here and were recommended often, just to give it another shot. But I've made the experience, at least with the headphones, that it can measure "good/excellent" but doesn't deliver the imaging/location, separation and soundstage which would be superb for FPS.

Listener's 5128 Database​

Satiate your sordid squiggle yearning!
listener.squig.link

(this is a link to a squig from listener, from the Headphone Show, that measures using the 5128).

Does this mean that I should better use this measurement to EQ properly?

I'd say you like a energetic V shaped profile, like diffuse field with a bass shelf.

Is this like a "bad" thing?

Do you have any recommendations for my current EQ to tune it more? Is there something what you are noticing and I should perhaps "listen" to and adjust it in another way. I'm coming from the way that I maybe missing something out, because I just didn't know how it "could" sound. Hope you get me here

Currently the MIDS are aligned with the Harman target, can you maybe give me an explanation on what this frequencie range has affect? Generally speaking, you also maybe have a great ressource with explanations abot all the freq. ranges and their affect on the sound (vocals, bass, etc.).

 

[Curupira]

Does this mean that I should better use this measurement to EQ properly?

Not necessarily, it's just one more data point.

Is this like a "bad" thing?

No, it's just your taste profile. It's good to know that when searching for products.

Do you have any recommendations for my current EQ to tune it more? Is there something what you are noticing and I should perhaps "listen" to and adjust it in another way. I'm coming from the way that I maybe missing something out, because I just didn't know how it "could" sound. Hope you get me here

I recommend having different profiles in Peace for different things.

For competitive gaming, you can have a profile with lowered midbass (100-250hz) and boosted high-mids (1000-4000hz) and highs (4000—10000khz) so you'll hear things better. You can achieve both with wide band (low Q) filters. A - 4db, 1.4 Q for the midbass and two filters at each of the higher frequencies, with 0.7 Q, will do. That or just increase Oratory's high shelf.

For music, you can leave your V profile on at all times, or just "compress" it on the higher regions so you'll don't get listener fatigue. There's a compress button in peace for this, on the right side, but you might want to increase the bass a bit afterwards.

Currently the MIDS are aligned with the Harman target, can you maybe give me an explanation on what this frequencie range has affect? Generally speaking, you also maybe have a great ressource with explanations abot all the freq. ranges and their affect on the sound (vocals, bass, etc.).

There's another video from Mark that highlights this

Summary: video from Super*Review that shows what each frequency range is responsible for and what synesthesic audiophile terms mean.

Another great tool is a table from solderdude's website, diyaudioheaven.

Edit: careful interpreting this. Solderdude uses compensated measurements, so a flatline here is what's neutral for his target. The squigs and FR graphs from ASR use raw measurement data, so neutral for them is not a line, but something akin to the Harman Target.

Last thing is to fool around with EQ, always being careful to match the preamp setting the total gain you're applying.

 

[someguyintheinternet]

For music, you can leave your V profile on at all times, or just "compress" it on the higher regions so you'll don't get listener fatigue. There's a compress button in peace for this, on the right side, but you might want to increase the bass a bit afterwards.

Thanks, I'll play around with that!
What exactly do you mean by compress, should I just bring everything from 4khz down to not get listeners fatigue (Didn't experienced it so far, how does this would feel?) or is this more at 6khz?

Summary: video from Super*Review that shows what each frequency range is responsible for and what synesthesic audiophile terms mean.

Again, great video. Understanding it a bit more now

For competitive gaming, you can have a profile with lowered midbass (100-250hz) and boosted high-mids (1000-4000hz) and highs (4000—10000khz) so you'll hear things better. You can achieve both with wide band (low Q) filters. A - 4db, 1.4 Q for the midbass and two filters at each of the higher frequencies, with 0.7 Q, will do. That or just increase Oratory's high shelf.

I'll definetly play around with that, it is already working really good with my current setting, I think because I already elevated everything above 1khz? Even with the bass.
But need to try it without and with a dedicated profile like you described!

What I'm missing for music is the bass i had with the Beyerdynamic, sometimes this felt great because I felt the structure-borne sound from the bass, the pads where like vibrating. Can't get this with the HD490, doesnt matter how high I set the db, it just begin to sound strange, muddy,boomy and resounding. I think this is the FR?!

Last thing is to fool around with EQ, always being careful to match the preamp setting the total gain you're applying.

Darn, you are right. Messed this up. Needed to adjust from -9 to -12.9. But didn't hear a difference, only it was quieter. For what I need to watch out to hear this "clipping"?


General question - I was wondering about this one: What would be the "correct" target curve to get the same frequency response which you would get when a person is "analogously" (without speakers involved) singing, talking, playing instruments (or orchestras) in front of you?

 

[Curupira]

What exactly do you mean by compress, should I just bring everything from 4khz down to not get listeners fatigue (Didn't experienced it so far, how does this would feel?) or is this more at 6khz?

Literally the button below. Listeners fatigue will be more related to frequencies above 3khz. I mentioned this because you seem to like that region boosted.

What I'm missing for music is the bass i had with the Beyerdynamic, sometimes this felt great because I felt the structure-borne sound from the bass, the pads where like vibrating. Can't get this with the HD490, doesnt matter how high I set the db, it just begin to sound strange, muddy,boomy and resounding. I think this is the FR?!

May be that the DT990 has more midbass and you're missing that. You can try boosting the 180hz region by 4-5 dB or trying the producer pads, as their bass profile is closer to the DT990s.

For what I need to watch out to hear this "clipping"?

You'll hear clipping as an horrible crackling sound, similar to what happens when people shout over cheap microphones. We add preamp so the added digital information (gain) doesn't oversaturate the whole signal and produce that sound. The highest peak in your EQ curve will determine what the preamp should be. Below, for example, I have a -3.5 dB preamp to counter my 3.5dB gain at 3450Hz, so I don't exceed the -0dBFS line. To see this, just check the "add pre amplifying" box.

I was wondering about this one: What would be the "correct" target curve to get the same frequency response which you would get when a person is "analogously" (without speakers involved) singing, talking, playing instruments (or orchestras) in front of you?

That is the million dollar question. Consensually, it is the Harman Target, but it's a long story.

In speakers, the consensus since very long ago has been that a flat on-axis response would be that optimal life-like sound, and that would equate to, in a well treated room, a downward descending line from bass to treble. For headphones, for the longest time, the debate deviated from "flat" free-field response (an attempt to replicate the sound of a flat speaker in front of a listener in an anechoic chamber (no reflections). This generally sounds too bright and lacks bass) to diffuse field response (an attempt to replicate the sound field in a perfectly reverberant room, where sound arrives from all directions equally. This generally sounds thin, lacking in bass, and can be perceived as harsh and "shouty"), both later adjusted to an average Head Related Transfer Function (HRTF), because our inner and, most importantly, outer ear amplifies some more "useful" frequencies, like those of voices, steps, etc (the region of the ear that does that is called Pinna, and that's why we call the boost at 1khz to ~ 8khz region in HPs and IEMs the "pinna gain").

In the last decade, however, dr. Sean Olive at Harman Research hypothesized that, for headphones, what was considered flat was also that speaker-reference "downward descending line from bass to treble in a well treated room" (unlike measurements made in special anechoic [Free-field] or reverberant [DF] chambers). Harman Research then conducted a series of statistical surveys and experiments to confirm that hypothesis, with success. Each variation of the target, then, builds upon what a majority of people consider tonally akin to flat measuring speakers in a well treated room, with the bass region being the average of the overall preference.