Want to upgrade Beyerdynamic DT990 pro - I don't like them anymore

[Curupira]

Ok, then I will do it like this and order everything on monday with same day delivery - Arya stealth is out, am I right?


Dang, the shiit is 320€ in germany - this is way to much. Then I could get the Topping DX5 II for just 300€... what do you think about the other listed amp/dacs and what would be your recommendation now that you know I'm based in germany

Will you use the PEQ and built-in features of the DX5? If not, I think the dx3 is a better deal. Sure, the dx5 has leaps of power, but you'll only use that with headphones like the aforementioned HE6SE.

And don't forget that software PEQ is a thing. If you're on windows, equalizer APO with peace is even better than hardware PEQ because you'll have virtually infinite sampling points and a lot more PEQ possible bands. I don't know how well it would do against the most invasive forms of anticheat, though. It's fine on VAC, but I don't know about kernel based solutions like Riot's.

Also, I don't mean to badmouth topping, but they have a long streak of QC and durability problems. The DX5 II just reviewed here, for instance, is waiting on a firmware update for the PEQ function to... function.


With this in mind, I gravitate more heavily towards FiiO and their K7 desktop amp or, even better in your case, the Bluetooth dongles like the BTR17. Once in balanced it should drive the 560s with ease, and if not, just use the desktop mode. With it you'll only be missing out on heavy EQing (things like adding a 10dB bass shelf). Oh, the Bluetooth dongles also come with PEQ, just like the DX5.

 

[Curupira]

Arya stealth is out, am I right?

It's a very good headphone with good imaging and detail retrieval (read boosted mid-treble and treble), but I wouldn't use it with another person in the room or on a LAN party due to it's openness. If you have never tried an oval hifiman or a STAX, the experience will be pretty jarring, it's like you're not wearing anything (aside from the weight). Compared to them, the Beyerdynamics and even HD 560s will sound like they're a semi-closed design.

 

[someguyintheinternet]

I think I will just order the Stealth too along with the 560 and 490pro, at least I can test it.

If you're on windows, equalizer APO with peace is even better than hardware PEQ because

Yes, I will only use APO/Peace and just copy settings from oratory1990.

Also, I don't mean to badmouth topping, but they have a long streak of QC and durability problems. The DX5 II just reviewed here, for instance, is waiting on a firmware update for the PEQ function to... function.

I wouldn't use anything of these features, PEQ, Bluetooth etc. - the AMP will just sit at my desktop and should power the headphones properly so that it has enough dynamic is loud enough etc. and maybe I can use in the future some low ohm IEM or headphones which are harder to drive so that I don't need to invest in a new one. Because of this I was at the Topping DX5 II side, as I've read here that it has alot of power and measured good.

And ofc it would be great to use a 4,4mm balanced cable! Maybe a MIC in would be nice, but isn't needed.

Got you, so better use the Fiio K7? Can't find a review here for this one. Is it better in comparison to the new Fiso K7?

 

[DVDdoug]

I'm already using Beyerdynamic DT990 pro for about ~10 years...

...Unfortunately I've heard now the AKG K702 and it was a difference like day and night!

If you can find comparable frequency response curves (I don't see the 702 reviewed here) you can compare to get an idea about what you like. And has been mentioned, you can also play-around with EQ. MOST of the sound quality/character of headphones (and speakers) is frequency response.

And they all sound different... Better or worse.

Also with headphones, there is virtually no correlation between price and sound quality. But of course the higher your budget, the more choice you have.

If you don't know this, unlike speakers and electronics, flat frequency response is usually not desirable in headphones. Because of the way they interact with the ears, flat doesn't sound flat, plus people have different preferences. There is the Harman Preference curve which is an average of what sounds good to most listeners but your preferences may vary.

to be able to locate it etc.;

That gets complicated, especially with headphones. Different people experience soundstage differently. The most common perception is the sound coming from inside the listener's head!!! Personally, I hear it coming from near my forehead except for hard-panned sounds that I hear coming directly from the headphone into my ear.

Headphone soundstage survey The survey surprised me because, although I don't get anything close to a realistic soundstage, there is a LOT of talk about headphones and soundstage.

Apparently, frequency response can affect it, but most people don't want to sacrifice frequency response for soundstage. The angle of the drivers inside the headphone may have an effect too.

It's obviously an illusion with the sound actually coming from a pair of speakers or headphones.

With speakers, room acoustics play a role and presumably the speaker's dispersion interacting with the room.

Floyd Toole says soundstage mostly comes from the recording so it's the responsibility of the recording engineer, not the speakers. (He was talking about speakers, not headphones).

 

[Brian Hall]

Giving this a little push in hope that someone of you can help a lost guy

Based on hours of consumed reviews now I think the ones that most fit are these two:
Hifiman Arya stealth (540€)
Sennheiser HD490 Pro (350€) (With Mixing-Pads)

Not familiar with the HD490. The Arya Stealth sounds great with just a bit of EQ.

 

[DVDdoug]

And ofc it would be great to use a 4,4mm balanced cable!

There's no real advantage to balanced headphone connections. IMO - It's a gimmick that reduces compatibility.

Depending on the design, the balanced connection on a headphone usually puts-out twice the voltage (6dB louder). But there are easier ways to get double (or more) voltage if you need the additional volume.

 

[zonk]

Sennheiser HD560 refurbished 99€
https://www.sennheiser-hearing.com/de-DE/p/hd-560s-refurbished/cl80crbfi0icx0buljlffayr9/

I think the Hifiman HE400SE and Sundara are very good too.
Hifiman HE400SE neu 99€
https://fiio-shop.de/Kopfhoerer/Over-Ear-Kopfhoerer/1069/HifiMAN-HE400se-Stealth-Edition
Hifiman Sundara neu 229€
https://fiio-shop.de/Kopfhoerer/Over-Ear-Kopfhoerer/1228/HifiMAN-Sundara

 

[someguyintheinternet]

Thanks for the explanation @DVDdoug
@zonk Will add the Sundara too my list. Maybe I will test-buy them too!
@Brian Hall what are your settings? As I will buy them for test I was thinking to just copy oratory1990 settings.

what do you guys say about the amp/dac discussion?

 

[Curupira]

Got you, so better use the Fiio K7? Can't find a review here for this one. Is it better in comparison to the new Fiso K7?

They'll perform about the same in relation to sound quality. The Fosi has more features like the mic in and the tone controls, while the Fiio has more overall power (akin to the DX3 pro+). I don't know about Fosi's durability and QC, but I can vouch for Fiio's, except in software longevity (they don't come close as brands like RME and Qudelix, virtually abandoning their older devices in terms of updates).

Depending on the design, the balanced connection on a headphone usually puts-out twice the voltage (6dB louder). But there are easier ways to get double (or more) voltage if you need the additional volume.

I think he was responding to my mention of the FiiO BTR17s balanced out. In the case of these dongles and BT receivers, they'll hardly be able to output more than 2V single ended, which can be a problem with higher Z headphones like the HD 560S and the old HD 6xxs if you want to EQ. That's why I recommended using the bal out, which reaches 4V. But yeah, good to debunk the more polarities the better myth.

 

[zonk]

Thanks for the explanation @DVDdoug
@zonk Will add the Sundara too my list. Maybe I will test-buy them too!
@Brian Hall what are your settings? As I will buy them for test I was thinking to just copy oratory1990 settings.

what do you guys say about the amp/dac discussion?

But I must say I am not a fan of buying multiple items with the intention for testing a bunch of items, just keep one and return the other items.

 

[someguyintheinternet]

To summarise this:
Fiio K7 -> recommended AMP/DAC
Fosi K7 -> not the same power level like Topping / Fiio, good DAC; but nice featutes like micIn and tone control; not sure about QC
Topping DX5 II -> alot of power but QC problems
Topping DX 3pro+ -> same power level as Fiio K7 but QC problems

May I ask you to explain me how does it come that for example the specsheet from Fosi K7 says 2100mW power and Fiio K7 2000mW but still the Fiio is more powerful?
Topping DX3 pro+ says 1800mW x2 -> For what does the x2 stand? So it's 3600mW?

But I must say I am not a fan of buying multiple items with the intention for testing a bunch of items, just keep one and return the other items.

Do I get you correctly: You wouldn't buy all of them to compare and test them all together and just keep the best, instead buy sequentally? May I ask you why?

 

[solderdude]

Do I get you correctly: You wouldn't buy all of them to compare and test them all together and just keep the best, instead buy sequentally? May I ask you why?

Comparing head-/ear-phones side by side is much better than relying on 'memory' of how something sounded.
The investment in these cheap IEM's (assuming none of them are expensive) is not very high.

Personally I don't like buying stuff with the intend to send back most of them.
This drives manufacturers/sellers into costs (they can't sell them as new and sometimes even pay for the shipping costs).

 

[someguyintheinternet]

Comparing head-/ear-phones side by side is much better than relying on 'memory' of how something sounded.
The investment in these cheap IEM's (assuming none of them are expensive) is not very high.

Personally I don't like buying stuff with the intend to send back most of them.
This drives manufacturers/sellers into costs (they can't sell them as new and sometimes even pay for the shipping costs).

Jep, definetly want to do it like this! But I can understand that from a company perspective (ordering everything from amazon) this isn't the nicest intention. Albeit somehow I need to compare them side by side at my desktop.

Would be great if some of you guys could tackle the amp/dac topic from post #31. I do really have paralysis by analysis now Currently I tend more to the DX5 II despite the PEQ problematic (As I dont use it). Unfortunately it is going to be avaialble at the end of august in black. So I would need to wait - and I'm not good at waiting

 

[solderdude]

If I wanted to buy a DAC-amp at somewhat affordable price with parametric EQ and a boatload of clean output power the DX5II.
Fortunately for me I already have a good DAC and headphone amp but if I didn't ...

The new DT 990 PRO X is nothing like the DT990 of old.
In fact I think they got the naming wrong... it is more like a DT 880 PRO X.
Needs some 'help' with the treble though but so does the original DT880/990.

 

[someguyintheinternet]

If I wanted to buy a DAC-amp at somewhat affordable price with parametric EQ and a boatload of clean output power the DX5II.
Fortunately for me I already have a good DAC and headphone amp but if I didn't ...

The new DT 990 PRO X is nothing like the DT990 of old.
In fact I think they got the naming wrong... it is more like a DT 880 PRO X.
Needs some 'help' with the treble though but so does the original DT880/990.

What do you think about the spoken QC problems of Topping? Yeah, I don't need all this options. Just want power for future Headphones or future IEM. Nice2have is a MIC input.

Speaking of DT990 PRO -> I don't know. I could also order this one to test it, but after I heared in direct comparison the AKG K702 to my (Old?!) DT 990 PRO 250 Ohm it was just a difference of WORLDS to me. Especially vocals... And I already eqd the Beyerdynamics. It was just warm(?) and muddy. The only song which I appreciated more at the Beyer was Yiruma - River Flows In You and some songs with deeper bass. Speaking of ga/mes: AKG702 definetly better in locating things, also footsteps etc much clearer.

 

[lini]

(...) In comparison the the Beyers sound a bit muddy and too warm. (...)

To my ears the DT770Pro/250 and DT990Pro/250 have always sounded a bit strange: Mighty bass, strong treble - but quite a significant drop somwhere in between. Plus rather high clamping force and comparatively heavy. For my taste the DT250/250 and also the DT531 sound quite a good bit better and also are more comfy.

Greetings from Munich!

Manfred / lini

 

[solderdude]

What do you think about the spoken QC problems of Topping? Yeah, I don't need all this options. Just want power for future Headphones or future IEM. Nice2have is a MIC input.

Only time will tell. Some bugs can be fixed with updates.

Speaking of DT990 PRO -> I don't know. I could also order this one to test it, but after I heared in direct comparison the AKG K702 to my (Old?!) DT 990 PRO 250 Ohm it was just a difference of WORLDS to me. Especially vocals... And I already eqd the Beyerdynamics. It was just warm(?) and muddy. The only song which I appreciated more at the Beyer was Yiruma - River Flows In You and some songs with deeper bass. Speaking of ga/mes: AKG702 definetly better in locating things, also footsteps etc much clearer.

The K702 has a 'forwardness' due to an elevated 2kHz range which the DT 990 PRO X does not hav... but it doesn't have the 'soft' and 'muddy' lower mids.
The DT 990 PRO X has a much more dynamic sound but has sibilance and sharpness (by design as it is a monitor headphone and not a hifi headphone).
With the treble 'fixed' one ends up with a dynamic and good sounding headphone with Beyerdynamic comfort and support.

 

[someguyintheinternet]

If I wanted to buy a DAC-amp at somewhat affordable price with parametric EQ and a boatload of clean output power the DX5II.

What do you think about the the Fosi K7 and Fiio K7?


Do you happen to know this:

May I ask you to explain me how does it come that for example the specsheet from Fosi K7 says 2100mW power and Fiio K7 2000mW but still the Fiio is more powerful?
Topping DX3 pro+ says 1800mW x2 -> For what does the x2 stand? So it's 3600mW?

To summarise current status:

Test-Buys:
HD560S
HD490PRO (with Mixing Pads)
Beyerdynamic DT990 PRO X (Should sound different to old DT990 PRO 250Ohm, not muddy and warm-ish, more vocals)
Hifiman Arya Stealth
Hifiman Sundara

AMPC/DAC:
Fiio K7 -> recommended AMP/DAC
Fosi K7 -> not the same power level like Topping / Fiio, good DAC; but nice featutes like micIn and tone control
Topping DX5 II -> recommended, alot of power, maybe QC problems
Topping DX 3pro+ -> same power level as Fiio K7 but QC problems


In addition I would like to get something like this, just for the looks:

BRA-HC-8: Custom Braided [F] 4-pin mini-XLR cable for HD 490 and Drop DT 177X Go

This is a customizable, braided version of our standard HC-8 headphone cable. This cable is meant for use with the new Sennheiser HD 490 Pro headphones as well as the Drop / Beyerdyanmic DT 177X Go headphones. You can choose from the various lengths / source side terminations (The connector...

hartaudiocables.com

 

[solderdude]

Do you happen to know this:
May I ask you to explain me how does it come that for example the specsheet from Fosi K7 says 2100mW power and Fiio K7 2000mW but still the Fiio is more powerful?
Topping DX3 pro+ says 1800mW x2 -> For what does the x2 stand? So it's 3600mW?

(Output power is per channel)
Fosi K7 = 2.1W balanced in 32ohm and 0.6W (single ended) (Amir measured 0.18W ?)
FiiO K7 = 2W balanced in 32ohm and 1.2W (single ended)
Topping DX3 pro+ = 1.8W in 32ohm (Amir measured 1.5W)


2.1W and 2W is not audible difference (0.2dB)
2.1W and 1.8W is just noticeable (0.6dB) on direct comparison but in practice same output power.

 

[someguyintheinternet]

Thanks!
I see often times the Fiio K11 R2R recommended (at reddit, not here) and soon there will be a K13 R2R. Do you know something about these?